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D&D 5E The Magical Martial

ECMO3

Hero
Friends don't try to outshine and overbear friends in cooperative games.

Of course not. It happens naturally, primarily due to the adventure design, dice and decisions.

Class is almost irrelevant in this at the table and being on "equal footing" is not the same as not being overshadowed.

Tonight our Monk outshined the entire party - Monk, Cleric, Wizard, Bard(me), Barbarian.

In part because he could fly and none of the other three melee-oriented characters can. It was a fun game among friends!

Putting all the classes on "equal footing" would have changed nothing except making the game less fun, more complicated and less immersive.
 

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ECMO3

Hero
Show me that rule.

It is in the players handbook under ability checks. I don't have y print copy to quote the page but it goes from easy DC 5 to nearly impossible DC30.

Thart is not graduated by level at all and there is not a different "easy" or "nearly impossible" at high level vs low.


It is up to the DM to set DCs.

Can you show me where it says this?

What the PHB says about this topic is:

"For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC. The Typical Difficulty Classes table shows the most common DCs."

I always make challenges level appropriate. I'm not even going to bother having a trap for level 10s with a DC of 10 to spot or disarm. It'd be a waste of time and add nothing to the story.

That is fine, I am not saying it is bad or wrong, but it is not RAW and you are changing the fundamental design of the skill system.

Further this has a direct statistical affect on bounded accuracy and proficiency vs expertise.

A rogue playing RAW with expertise should automatically make all the hard checks and at very high level they should even make most "nearly impossible" checks when you consider everything they can bring to bear (magic items, spells etc).

If you are changing DCs to make skill checks a challenge at high level for that "expert" then classes with only proficiency are going to fall off. This kind of play directly impacts whether a non-caster without expertise is viable.

I am not saying it is wrong, but it does nerf Fighters (and Barbarians and Monks) compared to RAW and if your concern is that those classes can't contribute out of combat then this is one reason why.

The section you quoted is under a variant rule regarding combating automatic success and what you quoted illustrtes the very problem I am pointing to (and call it out as a problem).
 
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ECMO3

Hero
I think that most of us are defining "magic" the way the game defines "magic". 5e has a specific definition, and it is this sort of magic that we are specifically trying to avoid in the concept of a martial character.

Ok. Then your character can be effective. you can stun or frigthen enemies without magic, you can get bonuses to skill checks without magic etc.


That is what the class is good at. Many fighter players would love to make their characters good at buffing, control, multiple-target damage, supporting other teammates, exploration, investigation, or social, according to concept. The issue is that single-target damage is the only thing the class is good at.

If they are built for that yes. But you can build fighters to be good at other things too and you can even do it without resorting to magic.

You have to give up something though and that is what I think a lot of the people who complain about fighters don't want to do. They want to have a 20 strength and a 16 Constitution and Pole Arm Master and still be able to be effective at those other pillars. The class is not designed to do that and you should pick a different class if that is your character idea.


They can drop to average at combat, in exchange for also being average at some ability checks.

Exactly. It is totally doable and I play fighters like that all the time (exclusively actually)

I think that you're going to need to back up that rather bold claim with some statistics if you want it to be taken seriously.

Sure, which part specifically?

Yep. You're often as good in a fight as a Cleric or Bard, and almost as good at skills as them.

EXACTLY!!! What is the problem?

. . . of course they are still full-casters, and you're not. When they're not using their spells for combat, they have them available for all sorts of other things.

If they are not using spells for combat they are not as good as a fighter in combat, especially the Bard.
 
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Vaalingrade

Legend
Of course not. It happens naturally, primarily due to the adventure design, dice and decisions.
If it happens naturally, you step in and fix the gameplay or ignore the dice. Not revel in the poor design that let it happen because you picked the winning horse.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Ok. But they do exist now.
But people could have played 5e before they existed and switched to another game before using them.

And even then, the feats and fighting styles are limited in use and strength. You have to houserule to make it work
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Here's the thing.

The 5e designers designed 5e to run mega dungeons.

Casters have tons of resources. Magical characters have tons of resources. Martials were designed to be "old reliables" for when resources are low or conserved.

You are supposed to have an absolute ton of encounters a day in order to drain the resources of spellcasters and force the caster to focus on vertical growth

This was shown in the 2013 playtest. Casters got more and more resources as parties were grinding through many encounters per long rest.

But not every adventure is a mega dungeons, so the 5e had to patch the system for martials with feats like Fighting Initiate and Skill Expert.

But they didn't go far enough. AND they took too long. In order to milk PHB Sales.

So we have this thread where people are asking for actual superpowers.

The 5e designers are addressing the problem in 2024.

But the Magical Martial is a response to 5e being years behind on content because of the "slow schedule".
 

The issue with justifying some classes as less powerful because their abilities aren't limited by resources is based on a false premise. The concept is that "Its OK that the wizard can outshine the Fighter when they are using spells, because when they are reduced to cantrips, the Fighter's contribution will eventually catch up."
However, that takes a very long adventuring day if the casters are good at resource management, and most groups do not tend to use lots of medium, resource-attrition encounters, preferring fewer, more exciting encounters.
More to the point, however, Fighters and Rogues are not resource-less classes. Their resource is Hit points, and being able to theoretically throw out effective attacks even after the Wizard is out of spell slots in not a balancing factor if what happens in practice is the party having to rest to regain hit points before the Wizard has exhausted their resources.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
The issue with justifying some classes as less powerful because their abilities aren't limited by resources is based on a false premise. The concept is that "Its OK that the wizard can outshine the Fighter when they are using spells, because when they are reduced to cantrips, the Fighter's contribution will eventually catch up."
However, that takes a very long adventuring day if the casters are good at resource management, and most groups do not tend to use lots of medium, resource-attrition encounters, preferring fewer, more exciting encounters.
More to the point, however, Fighters and Rogues are not resource-less classes. Their resource is Hit points, and being able to theoretically throw out effective attacks even after the Wizard is out of spell slots in not a balancing factor if what happens in practice is the party having to rest to regain hit points before the Wizard has exhausted their resources.
martials would do so much better for HP if you bumped the hit-die sizes of fighter and monk and gave them and rogue, barb, ranger and paladin 4e's healing surges rather than hit-die healing, healing a full quarter of your HP per hit-die use would do SO MUCH for these melee class's staying power.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
But unless everyone at the table does do that the fighter will be the best. Also you are assuming the fighter is not using subclass abilities, feats or fighting styles to further his abilities in this regard.

"If no one else tries, you are the best" Okay, sure.... but that doesn't mean you are doing any good. Because all it takes is a single other person to try to throw you aside.

And, yeah, talking about the Fighter base class tends to focus on the fighter base class. I am not going to assume feats, because they are optional and the fighter might want other feats. Besides, most of the feats you asked for are giving spells, which kind of defeats the purpose. I am not assuming a specific subclass, because that only helps if you happen to play that subclass. Also, other than taking spells as an Eldritch Knight, you are only looking at Battlemaster manuevers (which those skill manuevers are hard to justify. They are only useful some of the time, and cut into the Battlemaster's combat options which are useful far more often.), Cavalier... gaining proficiency?, Banneret Expertise (Note: Banneret is considered one of the worst fighter subclasses because of it s other abilities), Samurai gaining profiency and then getting a boost with elegant Courtier at level 7.

So, I guess, the Samurai at level 7 is pretty good at Persuasion. That's it.

The Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Paladin... all of their subclasses are just as good as the Samurai, until level 7, and some of them (the Bard) wreck it, and exceed it even at level 7.

Wizards are the premier melee characters if (and only if) they design to that specifically.

A Wizard optimized for melee to include melee specific spells, contingency, upcast false life, etc will mop the floor in melee at most levels with an equivalent fighter optimized for melee.

However that Wizard will be worse at the other two pillars than a fighter who chose to invest in those and no better than the melee optimized fighter.

Really? What subclasses is that wizard using? Oh, it doesn't matter? Okay what feats are they using? Oh, it doesn't matter? Okay, well they did end up locking in, what, five spells? Let's say 10 spells devoted to melee. Contingency is at 11th level, so the wizard with no defined feats, no defined subclass, only has a mere 16 other spells they can take. Oh, and 4 cantrips

So how many exploration spells can they get with that? Let's say 8 exploration spells, things like Fly, mage hand, light, find familiar, that make them really good at exploration, and let's say they take some social spells too, things like Minor Illusion, Comprehend Language, Disguise Self, Borrowed Knowledge, Enhance ability.

And of course you still probably have some room for some AOE and ranged spells, right?

So, let's just take the basics. THe Wizard is better at melee than the fighter with those spells and build choices you left vague. They can also cast Borrowed Knowledge and Enhance Ability to get 1 hour of profiency and advantage on any check they want, make them a diviner wizard so they can swap a bad die roll out. They have a familiar and maybe even Arcane eye for remote scouting, the ability to bridge language gaps, probably invisibility, AOEs, access to light and remotely able to interact with the environment to avoid traps...

How is the fighter better at them than social and exploration stuff again? Proficiency and a high score?

It is a team game and the fighter class can be good at the social and exploration pillars while still being good at combat, because the fighter has built in mechanics that make it good at combat regardless of choices. Most casters don't. Outside of a Bard or Ranger a caster class who makes choices (specifically spell selection) to be good at both the social and exploration pillars will be pretty weak at the combat pillar. They can manage. Bard and Ranger are the only two that can pull it off.

No they aren't. Casters brutalize combat. They need to build to handle melee combat, sure, but they have strong ranged options with a single cantrip, and then they simply need things like Hold Person, Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Hideous Laughter. Seriously, I had a DM who almost wanted to ban Hideous Laughter, it is a level 1 spell and if it lands the enemy is completely incapable of acting. Sure, they can save with advantage if they take damage, but you can just point and take a powerful foe off the board. Blindness can ruin an opponent. Have you seen someone set off a synaptic static dealing fireball damage while also debuffing the enemy with a -1d6 to all attacks, checks and concentration saves? Which by the way, stacks with BAne that is a -1d4 to all attacks, saves and checks.

I personally was told by a DM once that a fight would have led to a TPK for my entire party... except I was playing an artificer, and I cast web.

Every fullcaster is a menace in combat, and out of combat. By just picking a single spell.
 

martials would do so much better for HP if you bumped the hit-die sizes of fighter and monk and gave them and rogue, barb, ranger and paladin 4e's healing surges rather than hit-die healing, healing a full quarter of your HP per hit-die use would do SO MUCH for these melee class's staying power.
...starting to understand why some people let their players take maximum hit points...
 

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