D&D 5E (2024) 2024 Gladiator: The Narrative Dissonance

[Micah Sweet]

Ha! Point. But I still mean - there are more possibilities (in training styles) than your PCs will ever run into in a game, even if you include all of the monsters.

Totally. But that doesn't mean those training styles are inaccessible because they're a PC (or vice versa), just that they haven't had the opportunity to access them.

 

[Zardnaar]

5.5 didn’t bloat any apart from legendary monsters and monsters who lost b/p/s damage resistance.

For some data analysis, look for Blogofholding and the Finished Book.

Erm Wight and Mage of the top of my head.

45 to 80 hp iirc.

This hp bloat and weak saves especially wisdom and intelligence is why we use spells like hold person a lot. Command or tashas etc if not.

And Fireball kinda sucks.

 

[SkidAce]

Ok, so in theory then anyone could learn any ability if they had the appropriate type of experience. Is that right? What if the NPC also got their experience from fighting monsters? What if the PC learns through training and study, at least in part?

I usually tell them when a fighter or other npc does something they cant do..."Well, you haven't lived in their shoes."

If its a balanced ability, maybe turn it into a feat...go train with the dude for a month.
If its unbalanced for PCs, then its still..."Yes, you can eventually learn it, but you are going to have to go thru the years of trial and error, and hope you gain the same insights." They normally decline.

I mean, I have dwarven weaponsmith's that are functionally commoners. Maybe 2nd level in a class? They are the best smiths in the region. Spent hundreds of years learning their craft. As NPCs they aren't even magic users*, just maybe have expertise in smithing and a special ability to focus.




*everybody knows there is no such thing as dwarven mages anyway.

 

[SkidAce]

Ok, so in theory then anyone could learn any ability if they had the appropriate type of experience. Is that right? What if the NPC also got their experience from fighting monsters? What if the PC learns through training and study, at least in part?

How long would learning this "ability" take? That's the answer I usually use. Or take your next level in the class that can do it. Or use a feat.

The answer always makes sense in game logic....and they know the meta answer is sometimes balance.

I know I'm rambling tonight but if they say "Hey, why cant I do that?" the answer is "you choose a different path?"

 

[SkidAce]

 

[James Gasik]

Ha, if you think Tales of the Valiant is bad, don't look into Level Up A5E; I really enjoy a lot of it, but it provides players with WAY more tools and fun bits n bobs- it basically has 3.5e's Tome of Battle built into it; martial maneuvers (all non-casters get them to some degree) can be incredibly effective and it can be a lot more difficult to challenge the PCs. The classes have a lot of non-combat knacks and such that add more to skills (A5E characters at my table tend to end up with, like, 9 skill proficiencies and some expertise), and the exploration pillar of the game. A5E is great if you're looking for "more" 5e but it sounds like you want to move to something simpler, not more complex (which ToV is a tad).

I'm not saying it's bad- the players get a buff, the monsters get some serious buffs (one of my players didn't believe me when I told them the Morlock that was kicking their butt in was only CR2!), but that everything is new and I haven't had time to see how it all works together. At least 2 of the things that are annoying me (the disadvantage thing and the Fighter's +10 to hit move- "Make It Count", if they make only a single attack) will fall off over time, as everyone gets more attacks. Another thing made me tilt my head sideways is a player using the Eonic Lineage and a dirt cheap magic item (The Periapt of the Small and Mighty) can bonus action Help another player and let them add and roll an additional d20- the result being that if they had disadvantage they effectively have advantage and if they don't they have super advantage- probably not as bad as the Lucky Feat or Silvery Barbs, but still takes getting used to.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Totally. But that doesn't mean those training styles are inaccessible because they're a PC (or vice versa), just that they haven't had the opportunity to access them.

True! But it's also easy enough to say, "And seeking out that training is beyond the scope of this campaign". Heck, sometimes you CAN find a way to give them similar abilities, if and when it seems appropriate. Certainly a Gladiator's "Three Spear Attacks" is attainable for a Fighter - but they've got better options to focus their training on.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

How long would learning this "ability" take? That's the answer I usually use. Or take your next level in the class that can do it. Or use a feat.

The answer always makes sense in game logic....and they know the meta answer is sometimes balance.

I know I'm rambling tonight but if they say "Hey, why cant I do that?" the answer is "you choose a different path?"

It's not like there aren't tons of things that the PC can do that the Gladiator cannot, right? "Your focus was elsewhere".

 

[TwoSix]

Ha! Point. But I still mean - there are more possibilities (in training styles) than your PCs will ever run into in a game, even if you include all of the monsters.

For sure.

I’ve been leaning into LitRPG and progression fantasy tropes in my D&D games over the last 5 years or so. My overarching D&D multiverse has thousands of classes, most of which can be acquired through a combination of classes levels, feats, and special narrative achievements, which trigger class upgrades and consolidations.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How long would learning this "ability" take? That's the answer I usually use. Or take your next level in the class that can do it. Or use a feat.

The answer always makes sense in game logic....and they know the meta answer is sometimes balance.

I know I'm rambling tonight but if they say "Hey, why cant I do that?" the answer is "you choose a different path?"

So long as they could choose the path that led to the ability, that's just fine.