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D&D 5E Is a CR 30 monster a suitable challenge for a 20th level party?

Huntsman57

First Post
I think Moderate is essentially: Not life-threatening, but will cost the party some resources, whether that be Hit Dice, Ki points, Spell Slots, etc.
By themselves they aren't anything terrifying, but they play an important part of the "Adventuring Day".

Non-life threatening pretty well describes 5E, which, while I rather like the edition overall, is one of my primary criticisms. I feel as though a combat encounter that doesn't risk the lives of those participating isn't particularly thrilling or fun. It's more or less an encounter not worth having.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Depending on how the has gone I might suggest something other than a single CR 30 beast.

Such things are threatening sure, but a lower CR NPc with a few magic items and trick as well as a few high level minions could be just as climatic with an easier to scale difficulty and don't suffer from the potential problem of focus fire from multiple incredibly powerful individuals tearing through it. I'm not sure what your players classes are, but if you are willing to burn everything you've got classes like paladin and fighter can dish out pretty big damage by lv 20, and the party could tear thru 200-400 hp in a single turn.

Personally, I think Liches are underrated as end game fights. A Lich who has 9th level spell access and centuries to plan contingencies and defenses as well as gather weapons and allies for when those things fail. I mean just look at all the spells that state "If this spell is cast in the same place for a year the effects are permanent" and realize a Lich and it's allies could have had 300 years to build defenses.

Also, now that we have the conversion document for 5e that Wizards posted a few weeks back you could take favorite enemies from older editions and make them fit as well.
 

Hi,

in my current campaign I've decided to comply with the wish of my players, which wanted to play all to way up to level 20.

So... I wanted to make the last level end fight a big thing. So I've wondered if a CR 30 creature (which means Tiamat or a Tarrasque) is a good challenge for a 20th level party.
Maybe CR 30 is still too easy for a good 20th level party?

Since I have no experience on high level play, maybe some of you could give me some insight?

At first sight I would say it would be a very hard fight, but a possible one. Maybe if it is initially to hard make a few quests before the fight, so that the PCs could acquire magical items and so on.

best regards

It depends chiefly on two things:

1.) Do they know the enemy's stats?
2.) Are they building to defeat this enemy all along?

Tiamat is defeatable with a 20th level party. However, doing so requires a different kind of optimization than your typical monster-optimized party. The best way to kill Tiamat involves a party full of Eldritch Knights and one wizard, but your usual party isn't actually organized that way throughout a campaign.

Net-net, if full-strength Tiamat is the big bad of your campaign, the players will have to plan ahead in order to kill her with only four PCs. I think that's fine, and likely to be a good finale.
 

I think Moderate is essentially: Not life-threatening, but will cost the party some resources, whether that be Hit Dice, Ki points, Spell Slots, etc.
By themselves they aren't anything terrifying, but they play an important part of the "Adventuring Day".

Usually not even that. At 11th level, your typical Medium combat will, in my (guesstimated) experience, cost the PCs between 0 and 10 HP or a first level spell slot to overcome, and maybe some arrows. If you were planning on having fifty of them in a day, that might be interestingly challenging, but how likely is that to happen? Maybe if your campaign is set in Stalingrad during World War II...
 

Non-life threatening pretty well describes 5E, which, while I rather like the edition overall, is one of my primary criticisms. I feel as though a combat encounter that doesn't risk the lives of those participating isn't particularly thrilling or fun. It's more or less an encounter not worth having.

I agree, but I don't see it as a problem because the game doesn't require you to have boring, Medium fights. My game is combat-light, and fights, when they happen, range in difficulty from trivial up through Deadly x10 or so, but the average "interesting" fight seems to happen at around Deadly x3 to x4. I tend to skip over fights that are less than Deadly, or treat them as basically social encounters.

For example, the PCs were on a floating island that they wanted to use for a space colony. They were trying to clear off the dangerous fauna so they could bring in settlers, and I knew there were about 80 ropers and 70 phase spiders on the island. Rather than play out 50 easy fights over the course of two weeks game time (and maybe about that much real time), I offered them the chance to do some fights where the PCs roll everything at disadvantage and the monsters roll everything at advantage (which stacks with "normal" situational advantage for double-advantage against prone targets, etc.), and then handwave 5x or 10x (I forget) that many monsters in other fights. Essentially, I would let them play "this was your unluckiest fight, the one where everything went wrong." They fought five phase spiders at once that way, and when I counted the adjusted XP afterwards I found that it was already a Deadly fight before you added in the universal advantage/disadvantage... the PCs came this close to a TPK at least twice during the fight (both times when the spiders attacked the spelljamming ship's helmsman and came within a single initiative roll or saving throw of inflicting 20d6 falling damage on everybody on the ship). That was a fun fight for everyone at the table.

Personally, I think Liches are underrated as end game fights. A Lich who has 9th level spell access and centuries to plan contingencies and defenses as well as gather weapons and allies for when those things fail. I mean just look at all the spells that state "If this spell is cast in the same place for a year the effects are permanent" and realize a Lich and it's allies could have had 300 years to build defenses.

If you're planning to use a Lich as an end game fight, you have the grand opportunity to use him as a midgame fight too... multiple times. Each time he "dies" learns more about the party's tactics and revises his plans, and each time the players hate him more and more. Phylacteries are awesome.

The trick will be preventing him from wiping the players out early on. Maybe find a way to make him cocky in the first fight, attempting to Cherry Tap them out of boredom. "I will kill you with nothing but this mundane longsword, which I'm not even proficient in." The next time, he can amp it up and permit himself the use of a single spell. Maybe he's not even trying to kill the PCs at first, he's trying to "conserve" them for further challenges. (I do this when I play Master of Orion II--attacking Antares but careful not to kill them all and win, which ends the game.) As a special treat he can let himself kill one of the PCs. For a normal villain this would be irrationally risky behavior, but a lich can afford to indulge himself. For the final battle, the lich actually takes the gloves off and plays to win.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
If you're planning to use a Lich as an end game fight, you have the grand opportunity to use him as a midgame fight too... multiple times. Each time he "dies" learns more about the party's tactics and revises his plans, and each time the players hate him more and more. Phylacteries are awesome.

The trick will be preventing him from wiping the players out early on. Maybe find a way to make him cocky in the first fight, attempting to Cherry Tap them out of boredom. "I will kill you with nothing but this mundane longsword, which I'm not even proficient in." The next time, he can amp it up and permit himself the use of a single spell. Maybe he's not even trying to kill the PCs at first, he's trying to "conserve" them for further challenges. (I do this when I play Master of Orion II--attacking Antares but careful not to kill them all and win, which ends the game.) As a special treat he can let himself kill one of the PCs. For a normal villain this would be irrationally risky behavior, but a lich can afford to indulge himself. For the final battle, the lich actually takes the gloves off and plays to win.

Oh, that's amazing. I definitely need to do this to a party now.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
If you think Tiamat isn't tough enough as written, give each head its own HP and Initiative roll (maybe using Ancient XYZ Dragon stats) and treat her as an NPC Party, rather than a Solo Monster.
I would prepare some allies for her. (The consort dragon whose nostril became the Draakhorn?) If the PCs are just demolishing her, in come the reinforcements; if she's curbstomping the PCs, everybody else just hangs back to watch worshipfully.
 

If you think Tiamat isn't tough enough as written, give each head its own HP and Initiative roll (maybe using Ancient XYZ Dragon stats) and treat her as an NPC Party, rather than a Solo Monster.
I would prepare some allies for her. (The consort dragon whose nostril became the Draakhorn?) If the PCs are just demolishing her, in come the reinforcements; if she's curbstomping the PCs, everybody else just hangs back to watch worshipfully.

Tiamat's way more then strong enough to crush a Level 20 party on her own. I remember when a party did a Demo of a fight against her in her temple. 5 PC's with some powerful magic items. They got her to about half hp before they were wiped out. And as the DM pointed out later he forgot she could regenerate. Combined with the fact he made her make many unoptimal choices.
 


bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
Usually not even that. At 11th level, your typical Medium combat will, in my (guesstimated) experience, cost the PCs between 0 and 10 HP or a first level spell slot to overcome, and maybe some arrows. If you were planning on having fifty of them in a day, that might be interestingly challenging, but how likely is that to happen? Maybe if your campaign is set in Stalingrad during World War II...

A medium encounter for 11th level 4 person party is a single CR 11. What single 1st level spell kills that?
 

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