D&D 5E 1st - 12nd Game Design

[Shardstone]

So with BG3 stopping leveling at 12nd level, a new kind of aesthetic is born. The reasoning for this is because it was difficult to balance 7th level+ spells on the player end. This creates a new cap at 6th level spells, providing a new effective range of traditional power and recontextualizing high CR enemies, higher level spells, and epic/mythic content.

Let's say, in theory, that 5E comes out with 12nd level as the new max. However, CR still goes to 30, and 7th-9th level spells still exist; only, they can't normally be accessed by the players. What kind of changes would 5E need to still allow for a full range of content? Consider this post/thread a thought experiment.

Here are some of my thoughts:

• One of the most tantilizating ideas I've had in this paradigm is encouraging players to find ways to nerf monsters or gain big advantages before fighting enemies way above their paygrade. Maybe through getting some certain items, a few boons, a good arcane strategy, and some luck, a party of level 12s can weaken the Great Wyrm enough to overcome.
• Another idea I was thinking on is the rebalancing of classes. Essentially, 11th level would provide an Epic Boon (because why not) and 12th level would provide a capstone for the subclass. So in theory, a Warlock with a "Fiend" patron at 12th level gets Hurl Through Hell. The idea is to make those two levels still feel strong, but you're still capped at 12th level.
• Sidekicks, hirelings, and caravans become more important in this paradigm, both as bonus characters and to help players overcome big challenges due to the potential gap between them and their enemies. Taking on the CR 30 Tiamat is hard as a party of level 12s, and having a lot of allies to sub in during combat (kinda' like Dragon Quest or old school Final Fantasy) would be a neat flavor for the game to have in its "epic" content.
• 7th-9th level spells can be in one-off items or one-use boons that players can gain access too, which would be really cool reward content IMO. Having been gifted a ring that, just once, can be whispered into to call down a meteor swarm would be an easy, low-stakes way to add "epicness" to 12th level to taste.

What other ideas, limitations, or innovations can you see with this model?

 

[el-remmen]

My own Vanity Frankenstein 5E stops at 10th level and thus no one has access to spells above 5th - except actually they do in the form of "Old Magic" - scrolls and items that might have 6th to 9th level spells and some caster capstone abilities that grant limited access to some of those spells as a one-off - for example, clerics can get them as "Quest Spells" from their deity and Warlocks still have "Mystic Arcanum."

I have made some higher level (11+ level) ribbon abilities accessible at below 10th level because while part of my goal is less overall power, I think some abilities are not gamebreakingly powerful and are fine to access at lower levels (though sometimes I tweak them, just like I've tweaked everything else).

 

[Stormonu]

For the longest time now, I don't think D&D was ever really built for actual play past 10th-12th level, and all the higher level spells were there mainly for NPC use and to proscribe and catalogue "what was possible". Even the old B/X only went up to 15th.

If you look at 1E-2E modules, it's really apparent. S1 Tomb of Horrors and the capstone D3 Vault of the Drow is for levels 10-14 (as is Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits where you're facing a [demi]-god), putting the "average" at 12. Temple of Elemental Evil - a campaign - only goes up to 8th level.

The Bloodstone Wars is the only old adventure I can think of from that time with really high levels, and that was moreso to show off Battlesystem. And I don't take H4 Throne of Bloodstone as a serious "high level" adventure supposedly for levels 18-100. It was more a treatise for slapping down munchin gamers and a poke at those who claimed to have 50th level characters and such.

 

[TwoSix]

1) You'd want to take a hard look at levels 10, 11, 13, and 14 and see if any class misses out on a power boost at 10-11 and receives one at 13-14 instead. (12 is identical for everyone, so doesn't matter.) Dropping a major power boost into the 10-12 range for those classes would be a worthwhile modification.

2) With so many classes getting big power boosts at 11th (like a 6th level slot or Extra Attack 2), there would be some mechanical pressure to dip at least 1 level rather than the rather humdrum feat at 12th. Indeed, you see exactly that behavior in the BG3 meta for strong builds. You'd need to decide if that's a bug or feature, and adjust class features accordingly.

3) You'd need to decide if progression post 12th is purely diegetic (magic items, companions, earned boons) or if there will also be a meta layer of slowly incrementing non-level mechanical bonuses, much like E6 concept that was popular around here during the 3E era.

There's no right answer here, just considerations and tradeoffs.

 

[el-remmen]

Something I did was make sure all subclasses give their benefits at the same levels regardless of class. This made moving thing else around that much easier.

Edit to add: That said, some classes still get their subclass choice at 1st or 2nd level (as opposed to third) but they all get their subclass features at 6th, 8th, and 10th.

 

[The Soloist]

Even the old B/X only went up to 15th.

The BX book mentions a third book that would have gone to level 36. It never happened because they did the Mentzer re-edit to include the How to play D&D solo adventure. TSR was getting too many letters asking for instructions.

 

[dave2008]

So with BG3 stopping leveling at 12nd level, a new kind of aesthetic is born. The reasoning for this is because it was difficult to balance 7th level+ spells on the player end. This creates a new cap at 6th level spells, providing a new effective range of traditional power and recontextualizing high CR enemies, higher level spells, and epic/mythic content.

Let's say, in theory, that 5E comes out with 12nd level as the new max. However, CR still goes to 30, and 7th-9th level spells still exist; only, they can't normally be accessed by the players. What kind of changes would 5E need to still allow for a full range of content? Consider this post/thread a thought experiment.

Here are some of my thoughts:

• One of the most tantilizating ideas I've had in this paradigm is encouraging players to find ways to nerf monsters or gain big advantages before fighting enemies way above their paygrade. Maybe through getting some certain items, a few boons, a good arcane strategy, and some luck, a party of level 12s can weaken the Great Wyrm enough to overcome.
• Another idea I was thinking on is the rebalancing of classes. Essentially, 11th level would provide an Epic Boon (because why not) and 12th level would provide a capstone for the subclass. So in theory, a Warlock with a "Fiend" patron at 12th level gets Hurl Through Hell. The idea is to make those two levels still feel strong, but you're still capped at 12th level.
• Sidekicks, hirelings, and caravans become more important in this paradigm, both as bonus characters and to help players overcome big challenges due to the potential gap between them and their enemies. Taking on the CR 30 Tiamat is hard as a party of level 12s, and having a lot of allies to sub in during combat (kinda' like Dragon Quest or old school Final Fantasy) would be a neat flavor for the game to have in its "epic" content.
• 7th-9th level spells can be in one-off items or one-use boons that players can gain access too, which would be really cool reward content IMO. Having been gifted a ring that, just once, can be whispered into to call down a meteor swarm would be an easy, low-stakes way to add "epicness" to 12th level to taste.

What other ideas, limitations, or innovations can you see with this model?

Love the idea and have advocated for something similar myself. I was going to cap at 10th level but mush a lot of stuff from 11-20 down into 1-10.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

All of your suggestions, hypothetically, could do the trick. But another option has a lighter footprint while filling that same void.

The issue at hand is 7th level spells and above. And the desire to use many of the sweet enemies and villains from CR 13 and above. The gap in player power between 12th level and 20th level has to therefore be filled.

This can be filled without deep alterations to the current system, as a mechanism already exists. That is magic items. A DM giving more and more powerful, items to a party can bridge that gap relatively quickly, with no meaningful rule changes. Because, as is, 5e's encounter math is balanced around no magic items, any item given to the players already plays a role in bridging the gap.

All that would have to be done, is a table showing the guidelines for how many magic items, and of which theoretical power level, are needed to do so. If we think about the progression of 5e's core math, it is only a +1 to hit here and there and some HP and feats that are really missing. These are very easily made up for with magic items - especially if you choose to raise the atunement cap.

I encourage people to try it. It works beautifully in the system as is. And allows you to do exactly that - max at level 12 and fight CR 20+.

 

[Shardstone]

1) You'd want to take a hard look at levels 10, 11, 13, and 14 and see if any class misses out on a power boost at 10-11 and receives one at 13-14 instead. (12 is identical for everyone, so doesn't matter.) Dropping a major power boost into the 10-12 range for those classes would be a worthwhile modification.

2) With so many classes getting big power boosts at 11th (like a 6th level slot or Extra Attack 2), there would be some mechanical pressure to dip at least 1 level rather than the rather humdrum feat at 12th. Indeed, you see exactly that behavior in the BG3 meta for strong builds. You'd need to decide if that's a bug or feature, and adjust class features accordingly.

3) You'd need to decide if progression post 12th is purely diegetic (magic items, companions, earned boons) or if there will also be a meta layer of slowly incrementing non-level mechanical bonuses, much like E6 concept that was popular around here during the 3E era.

There's no right answer here, just considerations and tradeoffs.

These are good thoughts, thank you for this.

I may have it so 11th level is no longer the power spike but that 12th is, and make 11 the Epic Boon. 12th would then be a choice between probably three different features:

• A subclass capstone (like Hurl Through Hell in terms of design space)
• An upper-class ability (like Wizard's Signature Spells in terms of Design Space)
• A flat, somewhat consistent power boost (like Paladin's Divine Strikes in terms of Design Space)

This choice would let you tweak the feel of your class. The first option gives you more subclass flavor; the next two options give you varying levels of core class flavor.

Progression beyond would probably mimic what it is for the 2024 PHB; every time you "level up" you instead get an epic boon. I'd probably cap these at 8, and those eight "psuedo-levels" would complete with the 12 "core levels" to create a 20th level character in this reimagining.

I do like @DinoInDisguise idea though with magic items. You don't need Epic Boons for the eight psuedo-levels and could instead go "full-immersion" and make all increases in power be diegetic via magic items.

Might turn off multiclassing and turn multiclassing into feats. Maybe the first feat gives you the core features, and the second feat gives you a subclass feature? Will play with it to see.

 

[Shardstone]

Something I did was make sure all subclasses give their benefits at the same levels regardless of class. This made moving thing else around that much easier.

Edit to add: That said, some classes still get their subclass choice at 1st or 2nd level (as opposed to third) but they all get their subclass features at 6th, 8th, and 10th.

I will probably do something similar to this too, with 3/7/10 being my levels (12 being an optional, as going by my above-post).