D&D General Is it cheesy to power down monsters? Also, has anyone done "Them Apples" from Dungeon #48?

[Meech17]

I'm a new DM, and I've got a group of mostly new players. (Five players, two with experience, two who have played once prior to my games, and one completely new player.) We're doing some homebrew stuff. Real basic goblins and giant snakes type things. Going into the third session, the party is level 2, and I was thinking about trying to run them through "Them Apples". We're playing D&D 5E but I marked this as general as it's using first party, third party, and AD&D content.

I've been reading a lot of old Dungeon Magazine, and this is one of Chris Perkins' adventures from issue #48. It was designed for characters of level 1-3, but the main enemies are giants! 2 giants, with the potential for a total of 4, plus a mountain lion.

The thing is that it was designed to be a role-play heavy adventure. It's a play on Jack and the Bean stock it seems. Ideally the players sneak into the giant's house and get in and out undetected. Or they possibly parlay with the giants. Perkins even comes out and says if your party runs in guns blazing they'll probably get rocked.

So I've been filling in some blanks. Missing cows, evil step-mom giant.. Things that will give the players more opportunities to befriend the giants, or at least two of them. My party is also not really the shoot first ask questions later type. They tend to approach things with caution and an open mind, but with that said I know that the first rule to dungeon mastering is the same as the first rule of gun ownership. Don't point the party at anything you're not willing to destroy. A fight very well may break out.

In the adventure when the party comes into the giant's house it's currently only occupied by two teen girl giants, (Warning: Do not do an image search for 'Young Giantess' looking for reference photos. You will not find any) and their pet mountain lion. I took the Shire Giant stat block from Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts3, and tried to lower them. They only have 3d12 HP instead of the original 10 or 12d12+30, I think they're at 18 and 23 HP, down from the 120-something suggested in the book. I also lowered the dad Giant to 6d12 and he's around 35hp. I made the daughters use large kitchen utensils for their weapons and I think they're like 3d4.. It feels like it's right in the realm of "Will hit hard, but shouldn't out-right murder PCs in one blow"

What I've been worried about however is this: Is this lame? If my level two PCs do end up fighting and killing giants, is that kind of cheesy? These are supposed to be powerful monsters for higher level parties. I think the Shire Giant is a CR6 or 8 as written, so stock it would probably annihilate the PCs. They've already fought Goblins, and once they hit level three (Probably after this adventure) I planned on putting them into a big dungeon with warring factions of Goblins and Kobolds ala the Sunless Citadel. So I didn't want to do either of those monsters again now.

I'd love any advice or suggestions, especially if any of you have run this adventure before. Thanks

 

[Oofta]

I wouldn't worry about it, I adjust monsters if I think they fit the scenario all the time. I may make it clear that these are not "soldier" giants, they are the equivalent of commoners. Then again, it doesn't really matter until and if the group faces giants that follow the standard rules. When and if that happens just describe them as being much tougher looking than the giants they previously faced.

So feel free to adjust away so that it works for you. Of course the other option is to try to set up a scenario where it's clear they absolutely do not want to fight the giants and give them multiple ways of avoiding a fight. If they do get into a fight, the giants capture them and you have an escape scenario. However, this can be tricky because if done incorrectly it can lead people to think that their PCs will survive no matter what which for some people will make the game less enjoyable.

Good luck, sounds fun.

 

[MarkB]

Reducing a stat-block's threat level to represent a weaker or juvenile version is a pretty common practice and not cheesy. But for the juvenile part, I personally wouldn't tend to do it with intelligent creatures.

Your players may not feel like it's a cheap victory to defeat down-statted creatures, but are they really going to feel good about beating up two teenage girls, even if they are giants?

 

[Oofta]

Reducing a stat-block's threat level to represent a weaker or juvenile version is a pretty common practice and not cheesy. But for the juvenile part, I personally wouldn't tend to do it with intelligent creatures.

Your players may not feel like it's a cheap victory to defeat down-statted creatures, but are they really going to feel good about beating up two teenage girls, even if they are giants?

I would make it quite clear that the sisters want to eat the PCs, that "small meats" is a delicacy for example. I wouldn't feel too guilty about one of my PCs killing something that look at me as nothing but a tasty treat. But it's also good to allow for non-lethal solutions.

 

[payn]

The real worry here is if the players do go Rambo on the poor giants it sets an expectation that giants are easy fights. I'd do something like if the PCs decide to fight, they lose, but wake up strung up over a scalding kettle ready to be dropped in. They need to figure out an escape. Keeping with the beanstalk theme and turning this into an adventure that killing isnt the way to get things done.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Me personally, I'd use the powered-down giant statblocks you made for the two juvenile giants, but I'd keep the father giant at his normal statblock. This way there is a definite distinction between the two types, and I'd make it very obvious to the party that the two teens are still underdeveloped for giants.

That way they can make two different leaps in decision-making-- one, that because the two giants are juveniles they are not thought to necessarily be a straight combat-ready encounter and the party thus can make the choice to parley rather than go in guns ablazing... and two, being juveniles they will get the impression that these giants are "easier" combat-wise, and thus there are probably "true" shire giants out and about, and do they really want to run the risk of running into them or do anything to trigger their ire?

This way... if the party does decide to be a bunch of a-holes and take out the two giant children just because they think they are capable of doing so and get a little too big for their britches about it, they can then find out the hard way what it's like to deal with a fully-statted Shire Giant when the father comes back and finds his two girls have been slaughtered by this group of tiny squishies. At that point the father should go to town on the party after what they did, and the fight should be as one-sided as can be.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Lowering the stats for younger versions of powerful monsters is fine. I'm not sure I'd do that for full adult versions though. You could tweak a little bit because maybe this is a 'farmer' giant and not the typical warrior-types the DMG has but maybe only a few HD.

That said, there's lots of options for
1. Setting the stage:
- As they approach, they witness the teenage giants getting dinner ready by easily ripping the head off a cow. Or lifting an impossibly huge boulder to let a sheep out of its penn.

Basically, anything that says, "yeah, those things hit hard and maybe we don't want to tangle with them."

- Making the juveniles less 'mature' and 'innocent' might make the party more likely to chat with them because the assumption is that they aren't immediately hostile. Maybe one of them is playing with a human sized doll or something and treating it like its a baby.


2. Losing a fight does not mean dying.

If fight ensues, the giants can always smack them down and then tie them up. Why are there pesky humans here anyways? maybe they want to find out! Maybe one of the teenagers wants to keep them as pets! There's lots of in-story reasons why they might not kill them. The most common is that humans taste better if they're cooked live!

As was mentioned above, if the children are murdered, don't expect the adults to have any mercy.

 

[Meech17]

Thanks for all the advice.

I would make it quite clear that the sisters want to eat the PCs, that "small meats" is a delicacy for example. I wouldn't feel too guilty about one of my PCs killing something that look at me as nothing but a tasty treat. But it's also good to allow for non-lethal solutions.

This is actually sort of the premise of the adventure. A nearby village of halflings has lost a scouting party, who were captured by the father giant and are currently being held prisoner in his kitchen waiting to be cooked. The goal is to free them.

The real worry here is if the players do go Rambo on the poor giants it sets an expectation that giants are easy fights. I'd do something like if the PCs decide to fight, they lose, but wake up strung up over a scalding kettle ready to be dropped in. They need to figure out an escape. Keeping with the beanstalk theme and turning this into an adventure that killing isnt the way to get things done.

2. Losing a fight does not mean dying.

If fight ensues, the giants can always smack them down and then tie them up. Why are there pesky humans here anyways? maybe they want to find out! Maybe one of the teenagers wants to keep them as pets! There's lots of in-story reasons why they might not kill them. The most common is that humans taste better if they're cooked live!

As was mentioned above, if the children are murdered, don't expect the adults to have any mercy.

I didn't even think about this, but this is a good plan that a few of you mentioned. If the giants do end up besting the PCs, they could just be added to the pantry along with the captured halflings and now it's a jail break scenario.

 

[GMMichael]

The thing is that it was designed to be a role-play heavy adventure. It's a play on Jack and the Bean stock it seems. Ideally the players sneak into the giant's house and get in and out undetected. Or they possibly parlay with the giants. Perkins even comes out and says if your party runs in guns blazing they'll probably get rocked.

Listen to Billy Zane - he's a cool dude. I mean, Chris Perkins.

They tend to approach things with caution and an open mind, but with that said I know that the first rule to dungeon mastering is the same as the first rule of gun ownership. Don't point the party at anything you're not willing to destroy. A fight very well may break out.

I hadn't heard this before, but it's great. Also, always check to see if your party is loaded.

In the adventure when the party comes into the giant's house it's currently only occupied by two teen girl giants . . . and their pet mountain lion. I took the Shire Giant stat block from Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts3, and tried to lower them. They only have 3d12 HP instead of the original 10 or 12d12+30, I think they're at 18 and 23 HP, down from the 120-something suggested in the book. I also lowered the dad Giant to 6d12 and he's around 35hp. I made the daughters use large kitchen utensils for their weapons and I think they're like 3d4.. It feels like it's right in the realm of "Will hit hard, but shouldn't out-right murder PCs in one blow"

This is planning to fail. I'm hearing that you want the adventure to be peaceful, with role-playing. What's going on in this quote is that you're trimming down the NPCs so that they'll be a manageable combat for your PCs. Even if your PCs didn't plan on getting into a fight, you're already preparing them for one.

What I've been worried about however is this: Is this lame? If my level two PCs do end up fighting and killing giants, is that kind of cheesy? These are supposed to be powerful monsters for higher level parties. I think the Shire Giant is a CR6 or 8 as written, so stock it would probably annihilate the PCs.

Depowering NPCs (probably don't want to look up that one's images either) is fine if it serves the needs of the adventure. I'd stick with Perkins' original design and heed @TaranTheWanderer 's advice: losing a fight does not mean dying. Even better: attacking giants does not mean combat. It means the giants laugh, pick PCs up by their scruffs (collars?), and fling them out into the pig pens where they land in the muck and feel embarrassed.

 

[billd91]

One other potential thing to keep in mind. If you've toned down these giants, consider also toning down their size - such as describing them as 10 to 12 feet tall. They'd still appear formidable but leave you some narrative room for the full blown giant stats and 18 feet of height that can still carry the impression that the bigger giants are even more dangerous.