Is a deal with the devil Evil?

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

A contract in and of itself is neutral... (my group actually had a thread about a similar topic going about 2 weeks ago... but, now I can't find it...)

If the contract obligates someone to do bad things, it's evil... but, the deal making itself, I would say, is a neutral act that anyone can engage in.

I second the "Is a deal with a palain good" thought.

 

[Rackhir]

Well like Fox said above, it might be a stupid thing to do, but I don't see it as an evil thing to do. On the other hand as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... I am surprised that the Champion of Heironeous would go along with this as you've got to figure Nerull has to have a hand in his church's present problems (and lack of power).

 

[BSF]

Well like Fox said above, it might be a stupid thing to do, but I don't see it as an evil thing to do. On the other hand as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... I am surprised that the Champion of Heironeous would go along with this as you've got to figure Nerull has to have a hand in his church's present problems (and lack of power).

Definitely! I would expect the demon to come back a few weeks later and say "You know, we have a good thing going right now. I was thinking I might be able to help you out a little bit more here. I noticed that the enemy army has an encampment threatening you over [there]. Conditions aren't all that sanitary and I could nudge a little here and there and maybe make sure those guys are no longer a problem..."

Of course, if I were the player of Mortimer, I would be reaching for ways to weasel in all the specific wording of the agreement while trying to hamstring the church of Nerull.

 

[Squire James]

I wouldn't immediately go around changing alignments, but unless they were forced into the deal I would definitely consider it an act of Evil. A paladin WOULD lose his status over such a deal. A good deity would definitely put his cleric on his "watch list" for something like that. In most other cases, though, whatever happens happens.

IMC one of my characters was once a Paladin. Unfortunately, his player happens to be a greedy power-gamer. On three different occasions, an obvious force of Evil offered him power with "no strings attached" (he ate Tharizdun's fruit, he bought a "Holy Avenger" from a Pit Fiend, and finally accepted a "gift" from Loki). He took the power hook, line, and sinker all three times. He fell to temptation a fourth time (his deal with an actual devil, though this time he had little choice, and to be fair his soul was not part of the deal) even after becoming a Fighter. The player has delusions that his character might become a Paladin again someday, but for some reason I think his Paladin days are not only numbered, but that the number is zero.

Player comments like "I need to appease Tyr" are not conducive to re-entering Paladin-hood, IMO...

 

[BSF]

Mwahahahahah
That's great Squire James. But really, is it the Player or the PC that has delusions? If it is the player, then I feel kind of sorry for him or her. Once you truly fall from Grace, you can't come back. You lost your purity.

But it could be a fun PC to RP.

 

[Felix]

Bill invited me in on this, so I might as well give my impression of the situation.

The Demon/Head Cleric of Nerull made it obvious he was the one who was inflicting the plague on Port Laguna. He wanted to cut a deal for him to relieve the plague. To me, what this means is that he is holding a city hostage; much like someone can hold a hostage with a gun to their head, this guy is holding a city hostage with a plague.

His demands are to remove all of the good churches in that city: Heironeous, Pelor, Kord, leaving only a small shrine to Cuthbert.

So what giving into his demands equate to is appeasing terrorists or kidnappers. And taking their word that he will not do anything worse to the city once Nerull has a huge foothold.

Is that Evil? As a last resort, to save people's lives, perhaps not. But what was bad about this was the PC didn't ask the cleric of pelor PC to see if she could do anything about it. He didn't try any other options. And I think it's that that makes it Evil: he took the easy way out.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, the real question involved in any "deal with the devil" or "deal with the demon" type scenario is this: Why will the demon deal for anything that isn't evil?

The deal with a paladin analogy, while thought-provoking fails because, unlike demons, paladins have a lot of interests that aren't GOOD. For instance, a paladin might well want a fancy dinner to impress the head of his order when he comes visiting the paladin's chapterhouse or a good marriage for his sister (or ward) or a good dowry for his nephew. All of those are deals with a paladin but of a purely mundane nature. There are (or should be) no purely mundane deals with the devil. All of them should have a spiritual significance and price tag--it might not be obvious, but it should be there.

In this case, the spiritual price tag is not particularly subtle:

The Church of Nerull would guarantee the following:
1. They would remove all plague and disease from the city of PL in 4 weeks
2. They would lower the current mortality rate in PL to mimic AT

Both of these cede influence to Nerull and his cult. Why not make the head of the Nerullite temple the minister of education in the city while you're at it?

3. They would provide complete support to the military in the upcoming campaign (3 Clerics per company of troops plus 500 healing potions per month)

Exclusive chaplaincy for the Nerullites. Why not just appoint the Nerullite priests as the officers of the military here? You can bet that they're going to make "good" use of that influence.

In exchange, Mortimer would have to deed a specific plot of land in PL to the church of Nerulls use for 50 years. The plot of land would be used to build a church of Nerull. This specific plot of land covered 3 of the 4 churches in PL, and would cover the land currently held by the churches of Pelor, Heironeous, and Kord. The ony remaining church owning land in PL would be Nerull (massive plot of land), and a small chapel of St. Cuthbert.

In exchange? Oh, yeah, I guess Mortimer does see the first stipulations as benefitting him rather than the Nerullites. In exchange, he's going to raze the temples of Pelor, Heironeous, and Kord and erect a temple to Nerull on the same ground. Not very subtle there.

Pelor: What are you doing Mortimer?
Mortimer: Well, I'm tearing down your temple and destroying your altar and your idol.
Pelor: That's MY altar! How dare you destroy it?
Mortimer: Eminent domain, Pelor, old chap. I've got this contract to build a temple to Nerull so I'm sorry but I've got to claim your altar here. Interests of the state and all that.
Pelor: Nerull!?!
Mortimer: Yeah, Nerull. I don't know what you're getting so upset about. I mean, sure, he's your ancient enemy, the god of evil, death, unlife, and decay, but I'm getting a sweet deal on healing potions and a bunch of chaplains for my army. Besides, it's not like you're the only one I'm evicting. Kord and Heironeous are getting the boot as well.
Kord and Heironeous: What?!?
Mortimer: Yeah, Nerull needs a really big temple, since he's the god that's saving our city, we want to honor him more than any other god, so we're razing your temples to make way. No blasphemy intended, old friends. I mean, it's not like they'll be sacrificing more than one or two virgins a day on your sacred ground or digging up all of your saints in the crypts below to animate them. I mean, I've set a strict limit on the number of sacrifices and I've given your priests 7 days notice to dig up and remove any corpses they don't want animated.

So is the deal evil? You bet.
Is Mortimer evil? Let me see, he's rejected Pelor, Heironeous, and Kord and made Nerull the de-facto state religion, planted throughout the entire fabric of the economic and military apparati of the state. Maybe the moral status of someone who does that depends upon how the DM judges weighs his intentions and his deeds. To that extent, it depends upon the moral culpability of fools.
Is Mortimer now an enemy of Pelor, Heironeous, and Kord? Without a doubt.

Is the latter more significant than the alignment? That only depends on whether those gods decide to respond with Flame Strike or Holy Word.

 

[shilsen]

...

Ditto.

 

[Slife]

Methinks it would be in the paladin's best interests to try to even the deal. Like, I dunno, getting the churches animated as golems. Problem's solved. The churches are still around, plus now they can combine voltroneske...
I need my caffine. I'm starting to get lucid.

Comments in bold are how the promises could be twisted.

The Church of Nerull would guarantee the following:
1. They would remove all plague and disease from the city of PL in 4 weeks
By either killing off everyone diseased, or exiling them, or just by stopping from making any more plague carriers, and letting the remaining diseased die. Even without such extreme tactics, how many worshippers will they get by proclaiming the other gods are powerless?
2. They would lower the current mortality rate in PL to mimic AT
Animate them as zombies just before they die. They're only half dead. Kill off most of the AT population, and combine with 1 to taste. Notice there's no time limit on this one. Killing off all of the citizens would make the mortality rate zero after the initial jump. Then, the corpses would be reanimated. Instant army.
3. They would provide complete support to the military in the upcoming campaign (3 Clerics per company of troops plus 500 healing potions per month)
These clerics would be the de facto generals, as has been said before. Even if they don't officially take over, Charm can go a long ways. And if soldiers die, more skeletons for all.

In exchange, Mortimer would have to deed a specific plot of land in PL to the church of Nerulls use for 50 years. The plot of land would be used to build a church of Nerull. This specific plot of land covered 3 of the 4 churches in PL, and would cover the land currently held by the churches of Pelor, Heironeous, and Kord. The ony remaining church owning land in PL would be Nerull (massive plot of land), and a small chapel of St. Cuthbert.
Does Mortimer even OWN the land? Seems strange that a single paladin would have all those churches in a single title deed. Did he specifically say he was "seceding all of his rights to the property"? Two can play at this game.

How did the church of heroneous lose its powers? Is more elaboration possible, or are the players reading this. If so,

 

[WayneLigon]

I'd say he's taken the first really big step towards neutrality and eventual evil. That's pretty much how these things tend to work - first a little shift here, then a favor owed, then a service performed, then before you know it you're deboning babies on Nerull's altar to 'save my people from the plague'.

Since he's gone into this with open eyes, knows he's dealing with a creature that's so evil that the depth of said evil can barely be comprehended by the human mind, then I'd say his alignment has taken a serious 'ding'.