D&D (2024) Is a heavy armored monk feasible?

[Clint_L]

Like I said you lose damage and mobility, not much else with a 1-level fighter dip.

Yeah, but that's a terrible trade-off. You're getting a bit more survivability, which is already not an issue, in exchange for the high mobility and striking power that, in combination with their built in survivability, make the current iteration of monk so fearsome.

The knock against 2014 monk is that it is too squishy, too reliant on ki, and doesn't hit hard enough to take advantage of its high mobility and be the effective skirmisher that WotC clearly envisaged as its niche. Hoo boy, did 2024 address those issues, and then some. You've got way more focus (ki), the already strong manoeuvrability got further improved, damage got substantially buffed, grapple was fixed to allow for their high dexterity, and defence was vastly buffed through deflect attack and making dodge so cheaply available. The cumulative synergy has resulted in class that is arguably a top tier tank at the same time as being the highly mobile skirmisher that was originally intended.

I'm playing a new monk, currently level 4. She has one magic item (all players were allowed to start with one uncommon item as the campaign started at level 3), and picked eldritch claw tattoo (+1 to unarmed attacks, an additional 15' of range and d6 extra damage for 10 rounds, once per long rest). Point buy method. Human (tough feat), wayfarer background (lucky feat). So she is currently Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Char 10, AC 17, 39 HP. Only using unarmed strikes for flavour reasons, even without spending a focus point her basic offence is +7/hit doing 1d6+5 per attack, up to three attacks per round, making that 2d6+5 per attack if its a tough fight. She can get anywhere, fast, with her 40' move and dash on demand, and if she needs to seriously tank uses the dodge action or grapples, while continuing to get two attacks through flurry of blows, while deflecting at least one hit per turn. At level 4!

Don't get me wrong, it's super fun! But it feels OP.

I really like the suggestion that if someone wants to play a heavily armoured monk because they love the aesthetic, then let them, but just call it a cosmetic choice and leave the basic chassis as is.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah, but that's a terrible trade-off. You're getting a bit more survivability, which is already not an issue, in exchange for the high mobility and striking power that, in combination with their built in survivability, make the current iteration of monk so fearsome.

You also get substantially more effective control with weapon masteries and while you lose mobility compared to a single class Monk, you are still more mobile than every other class.

The knock against 2014 monk is that it is too squishy, too reliant on ki, and doesn't hit hard enough to take advantage of its high mobility and be the effective skirmisher that WotC clearly envisaged as its niche. Hoo boy, did 2024 address those issues, and then some.

I never found the 2014 Monk squishy. It was weak in tier 2 (not so in other tiers), but bonus action dodge made them pretty darn durable in 2014.

I think the main problem with the 2014 Monk at higher levels is people used Flurry of Blows too much and did not use patient defense enough.

I'm playing a new monk, currently level 4. She has one magic item (all players were allowed to start with one uncommon item as the campaign started at level 3), and picked eldritch claw tattoo (+1 to unarmed attacks, an additional 15' of range and d6 extra damage for 10 rounds, once per long rest). Point buy method. Human (tough feat), wayfarer background (lucky feat). So she is currently Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Char 10, AC 17, 39 HP. Only using unarmed strikes for flavour reasons, even without spending a focus point her basic offence is +7/hit doing 1d6+5 per attack, up to three attacks per round, making that 2d6+5 per attack if its a tough fight. She can get anywhere, fast, with her 40' move and dash on demand, and if she needs to seriously tank uses the dodge action or grapples, while continuing to get two attacks through flurry of blows, while deflecting at least one hit per turn. At level 4!

Sure and if you were a level 3 Fighter/Level 1 Monk you would have a 30 foot movement with bonus action dash on demand, a higher AC and weapon masteries, doing more damage with your attack action and having the same focus options with only 1 less point.

Don't get me wrong, it's super fun! But it feels OP.

It is OP, as are many things on martials in 2024.

I really like the suggestion that if someone wants to play a heavily armoured monk because they love the aesthetic, then let them, but just call it a cosmetic choice and leave the basic chassis as is.

I am not arguing that they should change the chassis or include a new subclass. I think it works fine with the chassis as is.

 

[Clint_L]

Sure and if you were a level 3 Fighter/Level 1 Monk you would have a 30 foot movement with bonus action dash on demand, a higher AC and weapon masteries, doing more damage with your attack action and having the same focus options with only 1 less point.

Did you mean to write "with only 1 point"? Or level 3 monk/level 1 fighter?

I'm curious - since it's using heavy armour, I assume this multi-class is strength-based?

Edit: should also note that I am happy to do without masteries on my character; I'm thinking of just getting rid of them altogether. They're really slowing things down and I have to explain them over and over.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Personally, I'd love to see a heavy-armor Monk subclass and a Dex-based Barbarian subclass. (Preferably, I'd like to see a variant of Rage that allows you to use Dex with regular Barbarian weapons...because then you could actually squeak out something quite like the 4e Avenger through Dex Rage Barb + Zealot.)

But as it stands? No, I don't really think this proposal is particularly feasible, unless you have DM buy-in to rewrite existing features. Like...you can DO it, but it would be mostly not very fun, because the vast majority of your Monk features are inaccessible while wearing heavy armor.

 

[mellored]

Personally, I'd love to see a heavy-armor Monk subclass and a Dex-based Barbarian subclass. (Preferably, I'd like to see a variant of Rage that allows you to use Dex with regular Barbarian weapons...because then you could actually squeak out something quite like the 4e Avenger through Dex Rage Barb + Zealot.)

Dex barbarian works just fine. You just lose rage damage bonus and reckless attack. but get higher AC and initiative instead.

Zealot doesn't care about using Str.

For extra fun, take Slasher, a Whip, and use Hamstring at level 9.


But yea. Monk needs a heavy armor subclass to work well at higher levels.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Dex barbarian works just fine. You just lose rage damage bonus and reckless attack. but get higher AC and initiative instead.

Zealot doesn't care about using Str.

For extra fun, take Slasher, a Whip, and use Hamstring at level 9.


But yea. Monk needs a heavy armor subclass to work well at higher levels.

I specifically meant keeping rage damage bonus, reckless attack, and being able to use big heavy weapons.

Because, y'know, that's literally what would make it like Avenger. Having high base AC while wearing cloth, being able to get Advantage on attack rolls easily, and (for at least certain subtypes of Avenger) having a damage bonus.

The whole point was that IF you could get a Barbarian who uses Dex, you could in fact do something that is a near-perfect 5e translation of the 4e Avenger, rather than the incredibly poor-fitting Paladin """Avenger""" we got in the Oath of Vengeance.

To be clear, I understand that this is powerful. It's why I haven't asked my current 5e DM to permit such a thing; I have no real confidence he'd accept, and it would be enough heavy lifting on his end (as we use a VTT) that it would be inappropriate for me to ask. But it's one of the few things in 5e that genuinely excites me as far as class concepts go.

 

[mellored]

To be clear, I understand that this is powerful.

Should be ok as a subclass feature.

I mean, Beserker adds 2d6 damage.
Zealot adds 1d6+2.
So going from 2d6+Dex with two short swords to 2d6+Dex+2 greatsword and +1 AC isn't a huge power bump.


That said, Avenger is Dex and Wis with high mobility, and lowish HP. Seems more like a monk subclass IMO.

Level 3:
You gain proficiency martial 2-handes weapon and can attack using your Dexterity modifier. The weapons damage is equal to your martial arts die.
Oath of Enmity: you can spend 1 focus point
to choose a target you can see, no action required. You have advantage with melee attacks with 2-handed weapons against that target for 1 minutes or until you use this feature again.

 

[ECMO3]

Or level 3 monk/level 1 fighter?

I'm curious - since it's using heavy armour, I assume this multi-class is strength-based?

Yes to both.

1 less focus point than a level single classed 4 Monk.

Dex is 13 or 14. You could play it with a 16 Dex and a 13 Wisdom instead, if you did not want to use stunning strike. This would give you slightly better damage reduction and initiative. But you pretty much need to be strength primary since you are losing martial arts.

Edit: should also note that I am happy to do without masteries on my character; I'm thinking of just getting rid of them altogether. They're really slowing things down and I have to explain them over and over.

Well I don't think Weapon Masteries are an improvement to the game, but they are there so if I am playing 2024 rules I am using them.

If you want to play a traditional unarmored Monk using daggers with nick and two weapon fighting is a huge boost with a 2-level fighter or Ranger dip. FOB at high level and you are making 6 attacks doing 1d10+5 each .... 8 attacks with action surge.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It seems to me that starting as level 1 fighter, cleric or paladin will allow you to be a heavy armored monk without the need for house rules.
Since you need dex 13 anyway, medium armor is also feasible. At that point ranger and druid might be considered too.

I'd probably stick to fighter probably so you can forgo tavern brawler for you flurry of blow strikes. Or be a tavern brawler and combine two weapon fighting style with handaxe and scimitar.

Despite my intitial reacton of no way, I think that concept is intriguing.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Should be ok as a subclass feature.

I mean, Beserker adds 2d6 damage.
Zealot adds 1d6+2.
So going from 2d6+Dex with two short swords to 2d6+Dex+2 greatsword and +1 AC isn't a huge power bump.


That said, Avenger is Dex and Wis with high mobility, and lowish HP. Seems more like a monk subclass IMO.

Level 3:
You gain proficiency martial 2-handes weapon and can attack using your Dexterity modifier. The weapons damage is equal to your martial arts die.
Oath of Enmity: you can spend 1 focus point
to choose a target you can see, no action required. You have advantage with melee attacks with 2-handed weapons against that target for 1 minutes or until you use this feature again.

Perhaps, though that would require filling out the rest of the subclass with its own stuff. "Let a Zealot Barb use both Rage and 2H weapons with Dex" is effectively the same result, but comes across as a smaller change. As noted, I haven't asked for this and have no intent to do so, so it's a moot point either way.