D&D (2024) Is Combat Tedious on Purpose?

[Ruin Explorer]

Again, a device not made to trap mice doesn't need to be defended for not trapping mice. If you want to talk about how HP growth is unsatisfactory as level progression, we can do that, but its also a discussion on taste and not objective fact.

I don't think the HP growth issue is just taste, I think it's also mechanics which can be analyzed a bit more objectively than that, especially as 5E doesn't seem to consistently ensure DPR keeps up with HP growth in either direction.

On the other hand that is a pretty boring and math-heavy discussion which I don't want to have so...!

 

[Micah Sweet]

A plot/story by any other name.....

You would rather I make a world with nothing interesting in it? Hexcrawl is a plot?

 

[KYRON45]

You would rather I make a world with nothing interesting in it? Hexcrawl is a plot?

You don't answer to me friend. If you say these things aren't a story for you then they aren't.
You don't need to relabel them for me.
I've just never understood your insistence that RPGs aren't stories.
We all see life through our own lenses.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

If every combat is dragging and you're not seeing any part of your rpg playing as acting ... maybe there is a connection. If you, as a DM, are not infusing character into the combat and you're experiencing drag in every combat ... while many DMs I've worked with in 5E are not experiencing drag in 95% of combats and are adding personality to the enemies in the combat, I'd suggest you're not taking advantage of all anti-drag tools.

I have played many 5E games for a decade, and a decent number under 2024 rules, and I have not been experiencing drag as a player or DM except on rare occasion where a particular monster build and a particular PC design just result in a slap fight. That probably accounts for 2% of combats. If I'm not seeing it, despite a wide experience with many DMs, it must be an avoidable problem ... and seems unlikely to be the default state,

Lots of good stuff in your post but wanted to springboard off of these particular contributions.

Yeah, just because Combat is happening doesn't mean Social Interaction (and/or Exploration, for that matter) stops. As a DM, I try to infuse some of the personality of the monsters/NPCs into the Combat having them taunt/speak with/emote at the PCs at some points throughout the combat. I find this encourages the players to inject Social Interaction into the scene as well - both with the enemy and among the party. It is fun to let the PCs' personalities shine through during conflict with the baddies.

Give the monsters motivations and tactics, too - something to think about during prep for sure. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet but the blog and books from @Keith Ammann can help quite a bit with that prep, too.

Remind players of other actions that their PCs can take during Combat, as suggested in the 2014 DMG (huh... these seem to be missing from the 2024 DMG...) like Climb onto a Bigger Creature, Disarm, or Tumble. Additionally, perhaps better yet, encourage improvised actions by considering Cinematic Advantage as espoused by @SlyFlourish.

Anyway, just some thoughts that have kept our combats from being "tedious" the vast majority of the time.


To address the VTT portion of the OP: I find that many of the automations of VTTs - especially when linked to DDB - can actual be a source of combat tedium. Some players focus on the buttons they can literally click rather than thinking from their character's perspective. And nothing drives me more batty than when the technology gets wonky, which it inevitably does, and it becomes time wasted with "let's get this working right" rather than "let's just revert, for now, to the simpler solution of a dice roller and character sheets and math - like we do in person - and just play".

Fun topic - thanks @MGibster

 

[payn]

I don't think the HP growth issue is just taste, I think it's also mechanics which can be analyzed a bit more objectively than that, especially as 5E doesn't seem to consistently ensure DPR keeps up with HP growth in either direction.

On the other hand that is a pretty boring and math-heavy discussion which I don't want to have so...!

Sure, the numbers can absolutely be adjusted better, but making AC go higher and stopping commoners from being able to hit high level beings isnt that. Declaring it objectively bad because it doesnt do what it wasnt designed to do is the issue. It's ok to not like it, and prefer how it used to work, but those aint objective arguments, they are preferences and folks are mixing the two to try to give weight to their opinions.

 

[Staffan]

In 5 if I throw a band of dozen CR 2 monsters against a 6th level party I don't expect it to be deadly but it would likely be a challenge. Kick up the numbers by another half dozen and I'd likely be looking at a TPK. If it's a 10th level party I'd likely start using mob rules if I didn't for the 6th level party but once again if I throw a small army of CR 2 enemies at them it's going to be a challenge.

In 3 or 4 I would never bother because they would only hit on a 20 which meant that we just had the escalator or ever increasing numbers that gave the illusion of growth. In 5 if we use a monster that gets advantage like berserkers and don't hand out AC boosting items like candy and those CR 2 monsters are going to hit even higher level PCs in the party about half the time. In 5th I'm more likely use the CR 2 monsters as cannon fodder for the big threat but they are still more than just a speed bump.

In 4e at least, you wouldn't use level 2 monsters as cannon fodder against level 6 PCs. You'd use level 6 minions. Overall, they'd probably do about similar damage to the party, but the minions would hit more often and be harder to hit, but once they do get hit they go down. In 5e, a CR 2 creature has like 35-55 hp, which is probably going to take 3-5 hits to chew through unless you spend resources for more damage.

 

[AlViking]

There are actually plenty of things in my sandboxes that could be stories. Events that are occurring, situations that will progress whether or not the PCs get involved, etc. Adventure hooks, in other words. But the players decide what to explore and pursue; I don't have a plot in mind for them. When the campaign begins the PCs start somewhere with things to do, and the players decide if they want to check those things out or go off on their own.

Wasn't there a thread a while back where pretty much everybody but you would call the results of gaming an emerging story? If I can I run a very open game myself but I would say that even in more sandbox style games a story emerges from play based on what the players decide to do. I have a story of my life and I don't believe it was plotted out in advance. You have a different definition of what story means than most people and that's fine.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wasn't there a thread a while back where pretty much everybody but you would call the results of gaming an emerging story? If I can I run a very open game myself but I would say that even in more sandbox style games a story emerges from play based on what the players decide to do. I have a story of my life and I don't believe it was plotted out in advance. You have a different definition of what story means than most people and that's fine.

If I did I misspoke. The results of gaming are absolutely an emergent story. I'm saying that's the only kind I want to play, and you don't need more narrative structure in your game than that to have fun.

 

[AlViking]

Sure, the numbers can absolutely be adjusted better, but making AC go higher and stopping commoners from being able to hit high level beings isnt that. Declaring it objectively bad because it doesnt do what it wasnt designed to do is the issue. It's ok to not like it, and prefer how it used to work, but those aint objective arguments, they are preferences and folks are mixing the two to try to give weight to their opinions.

If they fight smart a small army of regular soldiers should be a threat to a dragon. If an army can't even hit a dragon then it seems like every kingdom would be ruled by dragons. Meanwhile we don't have to have level 9 minion orcs because the level 4 orcs no longer have a chance to hit the PCs. If I want to set up a defend the town scenario in 5 I can use significantly lower level monsters to represent that army and give the PCs a challenge. I may use options like mob rules to simplify the enemy numbers just to speed things up but that is an option that I have now that I didn't really have in older editions.

Higher ACs are just one way of making monsters last longer in combat but it's also flawed if you don't also increase saving throws. Higher HP isn't a perfect solution either but you have to pick your poison because there is no perfect solution when you have such escalation of character abilities. Getting away from ever escalating defense and attack numbers works better than the alternative in my opinion because the range of enemies you can use, both lower and higher than the characters, is so much broader and can set up some interesting challenges simply not available before.

 

[payn]

If they fight smart a small army of regular soldiers should be a threat to a dragon. If an army can't even hit a dragon then it seems like every kingdom would be ruled by dragons. Meanwhile we don't have to have level 9 minion orcs because the level 4 orcs no longer have a chance to hit the PCs. If I want to set up a defend the town scenario in 5 I can use significantly lower level monsters to represent that army and give the PCs a challenge. I may use options like mob rules to simplify the enemy numbers just to speed things up but that is an option that I have now that I didn't really have in older editions.

Higher ACs are just one way of making monsters last longer in combat but it's also flawed if you don't also increase saving throws. Higher HP isn't a perfect solution either but you have to pick your poison because there is no perfect solution when you have such escalation of character abilities. Getting away from ever escalating defense and attack numbers works better than the alternative in my opinion because the range of enemies you can use, both lower and higher than the characters, is so much broader and can set up some interesting challenges simply not available before.

Yeap, hell I play Traveller and it has almost no progression and seem to enjoy it just fine. However, I get that folks really want that number treadmill as a tangible power meter. I just wouldnt say Traveller is objectively bad because it doesnt have it.