D&D (2024) Is Combat Tedious on Purpose?

[jgsugden]

I didn't say the game drags.

I said the game is tedious.

...

Care to elaborate on how a tedious game is not a game that drags? I may be misunderstanding what you mean, here, but the definition of something dragging is that it is passing by tediously.

There are many ways for PCs to fight a hill giant. One is whack-a-mole. PCs attack, then giant attacks, then PCs attack, then giant attacks ....

Another is dynamic. The Hill Giant throws a barrel of oil as a trash lob. Instead of poisoning the target, they are covered in flammable oil. Then an archer from the distance shoots a flaming arrow at the PC trying to light them on fire. This should spawn several questions for the PCs. Was the barrel of flammable liquid just convenient for the hill giant, or did it plan it out? If so - how does a 5 Int Hill Giant get the idea? Who was the archer? Was there a reason why that PC was targeted? Is there information to be gathered from the Hill Giant? ... Then the giant climbs on a nearby roof. Why? Is it fleeing? Or is there something up there it can use?

If you're finding that you're just going back and forth, applying conditions, dealing damage, and trying to figure out how many rounds of combat are left ... there is more that can be done. Whether you agree or not, I suggest trying to go overboard on the first combat of next session by adding in things for the PCs to think about during the combat - and that advance the story by painting a story that they'll put together over several combats.

You don't need a plot to have a fun game. I run all my games sandbox style, and let my players decide where to go and what to do, rather then lead them down an adventure path. Somehow, they all seem to enjoy themselves.

You're clearly free to do as you choose - but I've played D&D in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s. I've played with over 100 DMs, been a DM for hundreds of players, and I've played over 300 characters for multiple sessions each (with some running for a decade and others getting just a few sessions). I am probably in the top 1% of most experienced players in the world - and likely well into that 1%.

When I talk to the people that sat across the table from me and we remember the past we remember a variety of things. We remember clutch die rolls. We remember one liners that were perfectly delivered. We remembers a variety moments in time that can come in a one shot as easily as a campaign with an engrossing story...

... but we also remember and really treasure the stories. We remember the betrayals, the revelations, the decisions and the regrets.
We use shorthand to speak to each other like, "You're walking into the Blood Dale again".

When we play together again we make connections in game that make us feel like geniuses or idiots.. "Wait ... how do you spell that name ... with a double S? I cast disintegrate on the kid! I don't need to roll insight ... I told you years ago that I'd be on the lookout for his trademark fake names... and what would happen if I saw it!"

A DM I played with in the 1990s called me up not too long ago. He put me on video chat and explained that the PC I ran between 1992 and 1998 - an AD&D (yes run old school) Elven Magic-User/Thief who had retired from adventuring to run a Resistance against an oppressive nation - was being approached by the PCs in his current game in that setting. I slipped into a character I had only touched a few times in 30 years and spoke to his players - his kids and their friends - as they asked about what really occurred at the Battle of Bridgeport - and why they erected a statue of the Kimm, the Butcher of Bridgeport, when he slew so many people. They asked about what happened when we tried to Pierce the Veil. They asked me what happened to the Silver Blade ... which I drew from my scabbard. All of those answers changed their plans for the campaign entirely and it felt so bleeping amazing.

Those are the things that you miss out on by running a game with no story. D&D without story is like a series of dalliances while a campaign with a story is like a relationship. They can be amazing ... individually ... but they never have a chance to benefit from that connection that spans sessions and time.

Again, you're free to just run individual sessions with no story in a sandbox world that could just as easily be randomly generated ... and that can be a lot of fun ... but everything you get out of that can be had in a campaign with a great story ... and it can be combined with so much more.

 

[Minigiant]

Again, a device not made to trap mice doesn't need to be defended for not trapping mice. If you want to talk about how HP growth is unsatisfactory as level progression, we can do that, but its also a discussion on taste and not objective fact.

Not when the Tedium is sourced from the HP and Damage inflation.

 

[AlViking]

If I did I misspoke. The results of gaming are absolutely an emergent story. I'm saying that's the only kind I want to play, and you don't need more narrative structure in your game than that to have fun.

Just because the players decide to do A instead of B or ally themselves with an NPC you never expected nor planned for doesn't mean that a story isn't emerging from the decisions made during play. A story results from a pure sandbox game even if there is no preplanned plot to me. I would say that practically all DnD campaigns have a story that emerges even if that story is boring because all you did was dungeon crawls.

 

[payn]

Not when the Tedium is sourced from the HP and Damage inflation.

Noticeably absent in the OP

 

[Guest 7037866]

While I don't play 2024, I've never found combat in 2014 D&D particularly tedious. We take about 10 minutes per round for combat with 4 PCs and typically 2-6 foes. Overall we run 45 minutes per battle (4.5 rounds). Some are only 1-2 rounds and we're done in 15 minutes or less--others take 10+ rounds (such as the dragon battle last week) which took 90 minutes easily. But, it wasn't tedious at all since it was an exciting, knock-down, drag-out battle which the PCs barely won.

Ultimately, it depends on how much a player enjoys the aspect of battle in D&D and how effecient the players and DM are so individual turns aren't delayed. I roll initiative via excel macro every round, so I can just tell each player when they are "on deck", and even have them start rolling attacks or whatever while I resolve the current player's turn (getting damage from them, etc.).

Anyway, I have found having good battle maps where terrain and obstacles can come into play makes the decisions more engaging for the players, allowing cover, different directions the PCs can split up. For example, here is the mountain canyon from last week's dragon battle.

The PCs (yellow squares) started to the right (empty) when their familiar spotted the red dragon sleeping on a rock (red circle) so they attempted to stealth by it (orange route) and nearly made it when the dragon heard them. It flew down to the rock (red star), breathed on three of them, and next round flew up to the cliff and landed there. Meanwhile, the PCs scattered (some due to the dragon fear) to solid yellow squares. And so forth.

The players (and dragon) were able to use terrain, trees, large rocks, etc. to hide, break line of sight, drink potions, and so on. For a "hard" encounter CR 10 vs. four (and a half) level 9 PCs, it was a pretty epic fight really. One PC was downed in the end, died due to an unlucky natural 1 on a failed death save, but was immediately revivified. Several others were often below half HP, consumed numerous healing potions and spells, etc. Frankly, it was what a "hard" encounter should be IMO.

 

[Minigiant]

Care to elaborate on how a tedious game is not a game that drags? I may be misunderstanding what you mean, here, but the definition of something dragging is that it is passing by tediously.

Tedious implied repetition.
A game can drag without repetition.

5e combat is tedious because without the DM intervention, characters are just repeating the same actions over and over and over and over to hit a big chunk of hit points.

Combat can drag by not being tedious by just having one person take forever to OHKO.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just because the players decide to do A instead of B or ally themselves with an NPC you never expected nor planned for doesn't mean that a story isn't emerging from the decisions made during play. A story results from a pure sandbox game even if there is no preplanned plot to me. I would say that practically all DnD campaigns have a story that emerges even if that story is boring because all you did was dungeon crawls.

I just said sandbox games have emergent story. Did you read my post?

 

[AlViking]

I just said sandbox games have emergent story. Did you read my post?

I don't want to argue about this because it seems like we're just talking past each other and not explaining ourselves well and it really doesn't matter one way or another.

 

[AlViking]

Tedious implied repetition.
A game can drag without repetition.

5e combat is tedious because without the DM intervention, characters are just repeating the same actions over and over and over and over to hit a big chunk of hit points.

Combat can drag by not being tedious by just having one person take forever to OHKO.

The game works because there's a DM, that's always been true. The game is interesting primarily because you have engaged players in both roles. Meanwhile add in too much complexity and mechanically interesting options and it begins to feel like a glorified boardgame.

 

[Minigiant]

The game works because there's a DM, that's always been true. The game is interesting primarily because you have engaged players in both roles. Meanwhile add in too much complexity and mechanically interesting options and it begins to feel like a glorified boardgame.

Never said the game doesn't require a DM.

What I said it is that if your players don't power game your damage, the DM doesn't give damage increase weapons, or provide alternative forms of damage, the game can get tedious at mid levels as players repeat the same complex actions turn after turn after combat after combat as they grind through the high HP of mid level monsters.


If your players power game, or your DM Monty Hauls, or the DM is good with improvisation you'll never see this tedium.