Is coup de grace a broken rule?
- Thread starter Tom McCafferty
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
"Because the orcs are in a highly defensible position with missile weapons, this is a more difficult encounter than their CR would indicate. Therefore, award 120% of the normal experience for the encounter."
If the PCs somehow lure the orcs into the open before attacking, negating the highly-defensible-sniper situation, should one then not award the bonus XP? Or should one recognise that the PCs came up with a plan to remove their disadvantage, and reward their ingenuity and tactics?
-Hyp.
If the PCs somehow lure the orcs into the open before attacking, negating the highly-defensible-sniper situation, should one then not award the bonus XP? Or should one recognise that the PCs came up with a plan to remove their disadvantage, and reward their ingenuity and tactics?
-Hyp.
Sejs
First Post
My oppinion - no, they should not get the 20% bonus exp. That bonus was to represent a more difficult encounter because of an advantage the orcs had, negating the advantage negates the bonus. I would, however, give a bonus for new, supprising, interesting or clever tactics.
For instance, the orcs above were in a watch tower on a cliffside and a PC ran up to one of it's 3 supports and tosses a 10' pit from his Robe of Useful Items under it, causing the tower to collapse and topple off the cliff - you bet I'd give 'em an exp bonus! It's an interesting solution, and frankly I never saw it coming. However, if this is the 10th time they've Shatter to destroy an opponent's cover.. no, no more Neat Tactic bonus; it's no longer innovative or clever, it's tried and true.
And back to the main thrust of the thread - no, sneaking on someone while they're asleep isn't a Neat Tactic. It's tried and true - wait until they're asleep and stab 'em. As for overall exp for the encounter - I don't think the PCs would be any more deserving of full combat exp for killing two sleeping fire giants then they would be if they wandered across a 20th level Blackguard that was bound, gagged, gearless and subdued, then just ran him through. The defender was helpless, and therefor represented no challenge, therefor (imo) the effective CR of the encounter would be 0.
FireLance
Legend
OK, this is a feeble attempt to get this thread back on topic. We seem to have wandered off into alignment disputes and debates on copyright infringement.
The CDG rule is fine. The party in question used good tactics, although there are a couple of hazy points such as how two invisible, silenced rogues managed to pull off a simultaneous CDG.
If anything, it a case of a DM pitting the party against foes that he thinks are "unbeatable", possibly to set up a non-combat encounter, and discovering to his horror that they are not. I've done that myself; consider it part of DM training. I would award the party full XP, start planning part 2 of the module: Revenge of the Fire Giant King, and remember to send the fire giants out with hell hounds next time.
The CDG rule is fine. The party in question used good tactics, although there are a couple of hazy points such as how two invisible, silenced rogues managed to pull off a simultaneous CDG.
If anything, it a case of a DM pitting the party against foes that he thinks are "unbeatable", possibly to set up a non-combat encounter, and discovering to his horror that they are not. I've done that myself; consider it part of DM training. I would award the party full XP, start planning part 2 of the module: Revenge of the Fire Giant King, and remember to send the fire giants out with hell hounds next time.
Bauglir
First Post
I have a simple approach. If the situation is made easier or harder by something the PCs do then the exp is not modified.
If the party finds out in advance (eg through scrying) that they'll be facing a fire elemental, and memorizes several cold type spells, they'll have an easier time of it, but should get full xp.
If the party has the luck of having a wand of Snowball, (Fireball + Energy substitution: Cold), which they made/bought themselves, or picked up in a previous adventure, they should get full xp.
If an NPC gives the party said wand, to help them take out the fire elemental, then they should get less than full xp.
Otherwise you end up with "Sorry dave you rolled a few critical hits in that fight, so I'm going to dock xp as that made it too easy".. which is silly, and will annoy players.
If the party finds out in advance (eg through scrying) that they'll be facing a fire elemental, and memorizes several cold type spells, they'll have an easier time of it, but should get full xp.
If the party has the luck of having a wand of Snowball, (Fireball + Energy substitution: Cold), which they made/bought themselves, or picked up in a previous adventure, they should get full xp.
If an NPC gives the party said wand, to help them take out the fire elemental, then they should get less than full xp.
Otherwise you end up with "Sorry dave you rolled a few critical hits in that fight, so I'm going to dock xp as that made it too easy".. which is silly, and will annoy players.
MerakSpielman
First Post
Right. Say the fight, as written, is very very tough. You, as the DM, figure the party can get through it, but just barely. They would expend a significant amount of resources and one or more of them has a chance of dying. You deem that this encounter will be worth 800xp per character.
Now your players, being canny folks, have their characters do research (spending time and resources). They purchase the weapon they will need to make the battle easier (spending resources). They construct a clever plan which, if successful, will not allow the enemies to even get in a single attack. This plan could fail - they are gambling with their lives.
Perhaps you could argue that this makes the combat too easy, so it is only worth 400xp now.
But you don't want to discourage all of this extra effort. After all, they spent as much real-time (and more game-time) working at making a good plan. Reward them. With another 400xp.
Total: 800xp. Just like if they had charged in.
To sum-up, the extra preparationg and planning should count for something. If anything adds to a characters life experience, it's discovering what plans work and what plans don't. Making a plan is worth enough XP to compensate for any added easiness in the encounter.
An example from my campaign. The party of 6 tenth level characters has broken into the lower levels of an old temple of Vecna. The rogue is scouting ahead (as all rogues should) and discovers a room where a collection of four wizards and four clerics are gathered around a table, performing a ritual to animate a homebrewed "Grave Golem." The party decides to ambush them. They make a plan to sneak up and cast all their area of effect spells at once in the room, hitting all the enemies. This is more risky than they know - four of the folks in the room are level 15 and the others are level 10. The PCs cast fireball, flame strike, and blade barrior simultaniously into the room, while the rogue throws a clay pot containing a stone with Silence on it. At any point they could have been heard or seen, but the enemies rolled poorly. The PCs rolled VERY well on their damage, and the NPCs failed all their saves. Only the high-level clerics survive, and the party barbarian and monk killed them before they could get out of the Silence.
This group of NPCs could, if things had gone just a little bit better for them, have wiped the floor with the PCs and been more or less unharmed. The PCs had real guts trying what they did. They got full XP for pulling off a daring plan, not some cheesy half-XP or something for going through all that risk for an "easier" encounter.
Now your players, being canny folks, have their characters do research (spending time and resources). They purchase the weapon they will need to make the battle easier (spending resources). They construct a clever plan which, if successful, will not allow the enemies to even get in a single attack. This plan could fail - they are gambling with their lives.
Perhaps you could argue that this makes the combat too easy, so it is only worth 400xp now.
But you don't want to discourage all of this extra effort. After all, they spent as much real-time (and more game-time) working at making a good plan. Reward them. With another 400xp.
Total: 800xp. Just like if they had charged in.
To sum-up, the extra preparationg and planning should count for something. If anything adds to a characters life experience, it's discovering what plans work and what plans don't. Making a plan is worth enough XP to compensate for any added easiness in the encounter.
An example from my campaign. The party of 6 tenth level characters has broken into the lower levels of an old temple of Vecna. The rogue is scouting ahead (as all rogues should) and discovers a room where a collection of four wizards and four clerics are gathered around a table, performing a ritual to animate a homebrewed "Grave Golem." The party decides to ambush them. They make a plan to sneak up and cast all their area of effect spells at once in the room, hitting all the enemies. This is more risky than they know - four of the folks in the room are level 15 and the others are level 10. The PCs cast fireball, flame strike, and blade barrior simultaniously into the room, while the rogue throws a clay pot containing a stone with Silence on it. At any point they could have been heard or seen, but the enemies rolled poorly. The PCs rolled VERY well on their damage, and the NPCs failed all their saves. Only the high-level clerics survive, and the party barbarian and monk killed them before they could get out of the Silence.
This group of NPCs could, if things had gone just a little bit better for them, have wiped the floor with the PCs and been more or less unharmed. The PCs had real guts trying what they did. They got full XP for pulling off a daring plan, not some cheesy half-XP or something for going through all that risk for an "easier" encounter.
Norfleet
First Post
I think that the players pulled off a cunning and well-executed plan which could have potentially come apart, had their DM not been mildly addled.
Some people wish to argue about whether killing 2 fire giants in their sleep is evil or not. Does a party consisting of two rogues, a wizard, and a druid, only one of which has a stipulation on alignment, and for which "neutral evil" is perfectly valid, really care?
The real problem is much more basic: Why the hell were these lazy fire giants napping around in the snow, anyway? Nobody bothered to stay awake?
Also, that silence thing that somebody mentioned is rather noteworthy. Silence kills all sound. Everything. Total silence. That's really damn creepy. Hell, I've passed out from exhaustion after a week of sleeplessness, and when my computer shutdown, depriving me of the sound of the fans, I was instantly jarred wide awake by that. I'd think that a similar effect would occur for the giants.
All in all, the blame cannot be laid upon the rules, or the players. Incompetent DMing is to blame here.
Some people wish to argue about whether killing 2 fire giants in their sleep is evil or not. Does a party consisting of two rogues, a wizard, and a druid, only one of which has a stipulation on alignment, and for which "neutral evil" is perfectly valid, really care?
The real problem is much more basic: Why the hell were these lazy fire giants napping around in the snow, anyway? Nobody bothered to stay awake?
Also, that silence thing that somebody mentioned is rather noteworthy. Silence kills all sound. Everything. Total silence. That's really damn creepy. Hell, I've passed out from exhaustion after a week of sleeplessness, and when my computer shutdown, depriving me of the sound of the fans, I was instantly jarred wide awake by that. I'd think that a similar effect would occur for the giants.
All in all, the blame cannot be laid upon the rules, or the players. Incompetent DMing is to blame here.
Sejs
First Post
A couple people have mentioned silence waking people up - personal oppinion, it could possibly depending on the sleeper, but it's not 100%. Personally, I'd put it at say a DC19 listen check, then toss on between a -1 to -6 penalty (1d6) to represent how lightly or deeply someone sleeps.
Corinthi
First Post
Going back to the discussions roots, I do have a question. Is it possible to Coup de Grace with a standard Reach Weapon? I know one could with a spiked chain, as one can still threaten within 5 feet. However, a reach weapon cannot be used to attack adjacent opponents.
Also, it seems hard to line up that perfect shot while standing 10 feet from your opponent.
My players always tend to break out the Heavy Picks for CdGs. A full point power attack with a x4 Crit modifier always tends to ruin sleep.
While I find the above situation a bit mechanically unsound, I've absolutely no problem with the idea of a pair of rogues, a wizard, and a druid getting underhanded while vanquishing thier foes. Not a one of those classes is known for 'fair play'. I imagine such a group could be a blast to play. You'd have to be creative when you're lacking Tanks and Reliable healing.
Alignment issues are ridiculous to debate, because it's all based on individual perceptions and subjective situations. No matter how hard you argue, you won't change someone's mind on what is an is not 'good'. That's a decision every campaign needs to make for itself, regardless of how strongly other people might feel about those issues.
Corinthi
Also, it seems hard to line up that perfect shot while standing 10 feet from your opponent.
My players always tend to break out the Heavy Picks for CdGs. A full point power attack with a x4 Crit modifier always tends to ruin sleep.
While I find the above situation a bit mechanically unsound, I've absolutely no problem with the idea of a pair of rogues, a wizard, and a druid getting underhanded while vanquishing thier foes. Not a one of those classes is known for 'fair play'. I imagine such a group could be a blast to play. You'd have to be creative when you're lacking Tanks and Reliable healing.
Alignment issues are ridiculous to debate, because it's all based on individual perceptions and subjective situations. No matter how hard you argue, you won't change someone's mind on what is an is not 'good'. That's a decision every campaign needs to make for itself, regardless of how strongly other people might feel about those issues.
Corinthi
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
You can CDG with a melee attack.
You can also CDG with a bow or crossbow, provided you're adjacent to the target.
An Ogre with a Huge Longspear can CDG from 20' away, but with a bow, only 5' away.
A Kraken can CDG with a tentacle from 100' away.
-Hyp.
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