Is D&D too complicated?

[Henry]

***Removed to correct problem***

 

[SemperJase]

In another post, Ryan Dancey was quoted as saying:

I do not believe that the core D&D books bring people into the hobby.
...
The D&D intro box is the one product I can conclusively demonstrate had a direct impact on sales of the whole D&D product line

WotC recognizes that 970+ pages of rules are a barrier to entry. Most people (me included) need software to write up a character. There are just too many calculations to get them all right without something to make sure you have all the bonuses and appropriate modifiers.

Dancey essentially admits D&D is too complicated by showing the necessity of a boxed set. It pretty much the only product that gets new people into the hobby. Can anyone learn D&D without someone else demonstrating the game?

It seems the hobby is likely to be crushed under the weight of rules.

It really is no wonder that computer games are growing while pencil and paper games seem to be declining.

 

[haiiro]

It really is no wonder that computer games are growing while pencil and paper games seem to be declining.

I see the first part, and agree with it -- but I'm not sure I see the second part. From where I sit, d20 has revitalized the pen & paper gaming industry over the past couple of years. (That's just my layman's opinion, though, backed up by no data apart from my own observations.)

What do you have in mind when you say the P&P side of things is declining?

 

[Nightfall]

If people can go out, buy a set of books about a kid and his friends, the series become immensely popular, and they start doing RPGs about him, I don't see how a nearly popular RPG as D&D should have any problem.

My feeling is that gamers themselves are not inclusive enough to get the RIGHT people involved. By that I mean most of my peers back in high school were pretty darn snobby about who'd they allow in. It's still true now even though mostly its because the people I game with aren't people I'd hang around with legally and in a very public place playing D&D. (Mostly because I don't wish to put in jail for someone else's crimes.)

 

[Psion]

What Ryan says is the books are too much for beginners.

Sales right now are largely driven by long term players, not beginners. I don't think it's too complicated for those who play it regularly. Just those who are not familiar with the hobby.

Which makes sense to me.

 

[Krieg]

It's still true now even though mostly its because the people I game with aren't people I'd hang around with legally and in a very public place playing D&D. (Mostly because I don't wish to put in jail for someone else's crimes.)

Heh, now that sounds like a WVU alum if I've ever heard of one.

 

[The Madhatter]

Computer RPGs (many times) have more than 970+ pages of rules. All the rules aren't presented when you first start the game. Case in Point: Neverwinter Nights. It's a great PC game that's based largely on 3.0 rules. The manuals are e and they don't even explain spell effects. You are expected to buy the Bradygames manual if you want to know the numbers.
I think this is where the boxed set comes it. It spoon feeds you concepts, not really rules, so that you may play the game. We have many different modifiers to your d20 attack roll, but only one concept. d20 + modifiers Vs. AC = success/failure.
WOTC's minis are contributing to getting people into the hobby. Who hasn't been inspired by a well crafted mini? I know of at least two young men that thought minis were cool beans, and then they found out that a whole (new and unusual) game was attached to them.

 

[Umbran]

It seems the hobby is likely to be crushed under the weight of rules.

No, it won't. My evidence for this is simple - the rules have been complicated since 1978. The rules now are actually simpler and more unified in concept than they were at that time. Much of the extra page-count nowadays is in explication of the rules so that you don't get confused.

If the complicated rules didn't kill things back in 1978, they won't kill things now.

 

[JeffB]

Absolutely the game has become too complicated, IMO. There has been no "bridge" product like the Basic/Expert sets for years, and there really needs to be one. A product that gives the you the whole experience but in a friendlier, less rules intense way.

The game has become too complicated for me as it is...The rules bloat of even just the core books has driven me to the point where I just don't enjoy running 3.X, and haven't played in awhile.

I'm very much looking forward to C&C from the Troll Lords. I'm hoping it will give me a set of fairly flexible but simple rules that remain true to D&D's roots/themes, and allows me to convert with relative ease both the best of the old D&D and the best of the new D&D/D20 products. A tall order to fill for sure, but it sounds very promising so far.

Had I been introduced to the game w/ the current PHB, I'd likely never have stayed in the hobby.Way too intimidating and complicated..and this is coming from someone who started with the brown books, and the original basic set.

 

[Nightfall]

Heh, now that sounds like a WVU alum if I've ever heard of one.

More like a townie that knows too many people with similiar habits as the college folk. Also that said people are often suppliers TO said college people. So yeah I'm pretty much against college towns.