Is DnD well-balanced?

[TheUltramark]

im a little cloudy on the whole quest for balance in the first place.

apparently previous versions of the game have had serious "balance issues" and I have enjoyed them for so long. I can't really foresee a scenario in which I wouldn't enjoy 4e. I am already seeing the monsters deal some pretty weak damage, but that is too easy a fix to even bother mentioning.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

im a little cloudy on the whole quest for balance in the first place.

apparently previous versions of the game have had serious "balance issues" and I have enjoyed them for so long. I can't really foresee a scenario in which I wouldn't enjoy 4e. I am already seeing the monsters deal some pretty weak damage, but that is too easy a fix to even bother mentioning.

Balance issues and other flaws in an RPG system are often not immediately apparent, and generally reduce enjoyment of the system gradually over time (at least for those who find the flawed issue important). It's one reason you often see people on messageboards saying they've become disenchanted with a rule set (or class, or campaign setting, etc) rather than "I spent three minutes looking at it, saw a broken combo, and dumped it".

As for monster damage (and solo design, especially epic ones), there is a fix, it's in the DMG 2, MM3 and the errata.

 

[CancR]

Do you have examples of specific powers or abilities tied to a class that are out of line with other comparable powers or abilities?

Or do you have examples of powers that could reliably be used to "2-hit-kill" a boss (presumably a solo or elite), as you originally mentioned?

Well A slayer's base damage with a 20 str and a great axe is 2d12+7 and +8 at level 2. That is on a basic attack. During all of the season of encounters for the essentials since the slayer was released that is what every one wanted to play, and they average 15 damage on a basic attack, so its really powerful when powers get involved.

The Red box thief less so. I think that is kind of undiscovered by most, but always getting extra 2d6 and combat advantage as long as your inish is high is pretty incredible for damage, considering that at level 2 I am rolling +9. Thown daggers are 1d4+2d6+8 hitting ac at +12 at level 2.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well A slayer's base damage with a 20 str and a great axe is 2d12+7 and +8 at level 2. That is on a basic attack. During all of the season of encounters for the essentials since the slayer was released that is what every one wanted to play, and they average 15 damage on a basic attack, so its really powerful when powers get involved.

For the record, an out of the box Str 18 Barbarian si doing about 3d6+4 damage on an at will. An out of the box PHB rogue is doing about as much with formidable accuracy. And they both get daily powers to really rock. And the best damage dealer in the game remains the twin striking ranger.

 

[CancR]

For the record, an out of the box Str 18 Barbarian si doing about 3d6+4 damage on an at will. An out of the box PHB rogue is doing about as much with formidable accuracy. And they both get daily powers to really rock. And the best damage dealer in the game remains the twin striking ranger.

Yes but all that damage they are doing is not using at wills. It is only basic attacks.

 

[TheUltramark]

that is all theory, taking it from the classroom to the field:

The party I DM for is 7 strong, we have a Shardmind Psion - an Eladrin Avenger - a Human Alchemist - a wilden shaman - a genasi sorcerer - a goliath barbarian - a shifter warden

in the last encounter the genasi led the group in damage number, the shifter had the most kills.

previous to that the goliath did the most damage while the alchemist did the highest number.

the encounter previous to that one, the psion took out all the minions to lead in kills, while the barbarian and shifter were in the lead for damage

that seems like balance to me - oh - and the eladrin might be the mvp of the group - he somehow gets the encounter's big enemy 1on1 and neutralizes it.

 

[Dannager]

Yes but all that damage they are doing is not using at wills. It is only basic attacks.

A basic attack is an at-will power.

In practical terms, a Slayer dealing X damage per turn using basic attacks and a Ranger dealing X damage per turn using Twin Strike are interchangeable in terms of resource management.

I have seen precious little evidence that Essentials classes are anything more than perhaps slightly stronger than some of their earlier counterparts. And with the recent class updates (which give PHB strikers the ability to use their striker damage ability once per turn rather than once per round) I'm no longer sure that you can even make that claim.

 

[CancR]

A basic attack is an at-will power.

In practical terms, a Slayer dealing X damage per turn using basic attacks and a Ranger dealing X damage per turn using Twin Strike are interchangeable in terms of resource management.

I have seen precious little evidence that Essentials classes are anything more than perhaps slightly stronger than some of their earlier counterparts. And with the recent class updates (which give PHB strikers the ability to use their striker damage ability once per turn rather than once per round) I'm no longer sure that you can even make that claim.

While a basic attack is a at will power, there are also other power they have that are at wills that do even more then that. the phb basic attack is far behind the new classes. Same goes if you compare gained at will powers to gained at will powers

 

[Dannager]

While a basic attack is a at will power, there are also other power they have that are at wills that do even more then that.

Yes. All classes do. That doesn't change anything.

the phb basic attack is far behind the new classes.

The basic attack in the PHB is the same basic attack that the Essentials classes are using. The only difference is that they have stances and other bonuses that augment that basic attack. Functionally, there is very little difference between this and the way a typical class's at-will powers work.

Same goes if you compare gained at will powers to gained at will powers

I'm not sure what you mean, here.

What I'm trying to get you to do is consider that 4e actually might have the closest thing to truly respectable levels of balance across classes that we've seen in any form of D&D to date.

 

[Imaro]

What I'm trying to get you to do is consider that 4e actually might have the closest thing to truly respectable levels of balance across classes that we've seen in any form of D&D to date.

The Binder or Seeker as opposed to the Arcanist doesn't really strengthen your case as stated above... Unless you think they are all equally effective as controllers..