Is dominate evil?

[Elf Witch]

I agree that self-defense is a perfectly legitimate use.



Using it on prisoners for ease of transport is crossing the line IMO. You're using it for your own convenience, not out of necessity. I mean, you could also make the prisoners easier to transport by slitting their throats; but I think most people would agree that's venturing into evil territory.

Generally, I think that's a pretty good metric for use of dominate. If it would be acceptable to kill someone in a given situation, it's okay to dominate that person instead. If not, probably not.

I totally disagree with this you are in the wilderness and you have prisoners you have several choices you can kill them which is the easiest thing to do. You can tie them up and take every precaution that they won't get out of their bonds and kill you while you sleep or worse alert their comrades.of your position. Or you can dominate them with the order not to escape or make noise.

I think if more players looked at and used dominate that way they would be less likely to kill prisoners.

I was in a situation where we had to sneak through enemy territory to stop a gate from opening to the infernal plane. We got into a fight that left one of the enemy soldiers alive. He himself was not evil he was just a loyal soldier working for his Kind who he didn't know was evil.

We tried to convince him but he did not believe us. We couldn't drag him with us and chance him giving us away or leave him tied up and take the chance he would escape and alert them we were coming. Our mission depending entirely on sneaking in. So we slit his throat. Dominating him would have been a much kinder fate.

Also say you are transporting a very evil and powerful bad guy through a city full of innocent people for his trial. What would be better a dominate on him preventing him from trying to escape or just hoping that your bonds and guards are enough. And if he does escape killing innocent people how do justify well we could have stopped him from doing this but we didn't want to take his free will away from him.

I don't see using dominate for things like this as evil. It just make sense that if you have this magical ability you would use it to protect the people and for the greater good.

 

[Janx]

Using it on prisoners for ease of transport is crossing the line IMO. You're using it for your own convenience, not out of necessity. I mean, you could also make the prisoners easier to transport by slitting their throats; but I think most people would agree that's venturing into evil territory.

Generally, I think that's a pretty good metric for use of dominate. If it would be acceptable to kill someone in a given situation, it's okay to dominate that person instead. If not, probably not.

the ease of my convenience is using Dominate to transport a criminal is that I don't risk any guards if he fights or tries to escape, or tries to shank another prisoner. The prisoner has no more freedom than if I chained him, tranq'd him, or tasered the stuffing out of him.

Being able to Hold Person or Dominate a suspect is probably the most effective, safe and humane way to capture, transport and detain someone. Any mundane means requires force, which if the suspect struggles, somebody will get hurt.

I would modify your metric, that if it is acceptable to use a mundane means to the same effect, than the magic means is probably acceptable as well.

Thus, if I can taser, tranq, kill, cuff, chain a suspect/prisoner/criminal than I can use magic equivalents.

Thus, using Dominate to stop a suspect, walk into a jail cell is no diffrent than cops shooting him or grappling him, cuffing him, and forcing him into the paddy wagon.

 

[prosfilaes]

A fireball can be a utility spell if you get creative. It is not just an injury creator. Dominate only dominates.

"If you get creative" indicates it's not part of the goal. And I think luring high-INT low-WIS casters into trying to use a 30-ft. radius ball of fire as a utility spell is a downside.

Almost more than any other non-healing spell, Dominate would save lives in the real world. "Climb off the rail and onto the bridge and walk towards me." "Put the gun down and let the hostage go."

 

[jonesy]

"If you get creative" indicates it's not part of the goal.

The goal of injuring. I got that. But you missed my point. What if that isn't the goal?

A fireball can:
- remove barriers like roadblocks
- kill a bridge
- open a door
- destroy ship sails
- intimidate
- signal
- melt traps and clear minefields (trapfields?)
- start avalanches to block mountain passes
- light spaces briefly
- become a Subdual Substitution Fireball
etc.

And I think luring high-INT low-WIS casters into trying to use a 30-ft. radius ball of fire as a utility spell is a downside.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Almost more than any other non-healing spell, Dominate would save lives in the real world. "Climb off the rail and onto the bridge and walk towards me." "Put the gun down and let the hostage go."

Sure. And in the real world it would also have huge legal consequences, and limitations on its use, and debate on whether those uses were moral.

 

[prosfilaes]

The goal of injuring.

No, the goal of a fireball.

A fireball can:
- remove barriers like roadblocks
- kill a bridge
- open a door
- destroy ship sails

So in destruction in general, it can do jobs that one man with a weapon could do, with a whole lot more collateral damage. Yes, there's a couple cases where a 30-ft. radius ball of fire can be used without doing damage to someone or something or threatening to do so, but they're all cases that are done as well or better by 1st level spells.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, felt guilty, and tried to sell the world on non-violent uses of the H-bomb. The world agreed that that was a bad idea. I'm sure you can come with a lot of creative uses for a 30-ft. radius ball of fire, but wisdom should tell you there's safer, cheaper tools for most of them.

Sure. And in the real world it would also have huge legal consequences, and limitations on its use, and debate on whether those uses were moral.

Sure, but police departments don't carry hand-grenades, which by D20 Modern numbers are smaller than a fireball in radius and damage. Explosives are strictly controlled, and something like fireball--which by RAW has low pressure and thus little practical use--would only be found in military stores. And thinking about police shootings, I think everyone involved would be happier with the PD getting slapped with a wrongful dominate suit instead of a wrongful death suit after the incident.

 

[jonesy]

No, the goal of a fireball.

Why are you so stuck up on the idea that the only goal you could have is injury? I thought you were on this thread trying to prove that Dominate wasn't bad?

So in destruction in general, it can do jobs that one man with a weapon could do, with a whole lot more collateral damage. Yes, there's a couple cases where a 30-ft. radius ball of fire can be used without doing damage to someone or something or threatening to do so, but they're all cases that are done as well or better by 1st level spells.

Get specific enough, and you can say anything. Like, if you desperately need to get past a door, and you only have a Fireball and a Dominate left, are you going to Dominate the door open?

And what is with the whole 30-ft. obsession? How sloppy a mage are you talking about here that he can't place it how he needs to?

Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, felt guilty, and tried to sell the world on non-violent uses of the H-bomb. The world agreed that that was a bad idea. I'm sure you can come with a lot of creative uses for a 30-ft. radius ball of fire, but wisdom should tell you there's safer, cheaper tools for most of them.

And again with the 30-ft. thing. And of course there are safer and cheaper tools. That's irrelevant.

If it's what you have in the situation, it's what you have to use. Saying that there are alternatives doesn't help if they aren't available. Do you seriously have EVERYTHING available to your party in any given situation?

Sure, but police departments don't carry hand-grenades, which by D20 Modern numbers are smaller than a fireball in radius and damage. Explosives are strictly controlled, and something like fireball--which by RAW has low pressure and thus little practical use--would only be found in military stores. And thinking about police shootings, I think everyone involved would be happier with the PD getting slapped with a wrongful dominate suit instead of a wrongful death suit after the incident.

And everyone would be happy if the police walked around with mindcontrol powers? Get serious.

 

[prosfilaes]

And what is with the whole 30-ft. obsession? How sloppy a mage are you talking about here that he can't place it how he needs to?

Your DM must be pretty generous; my characters are frequently in spaces and situations where they can't just burn everything in a large area safely.

If it's what you have in the situation, it's what you have to use. Saying that there are alternatives doesn't help if they aren't available. Do you seriously have EVERYTHING available to your party in any given situation?

No, but the fact that you can occasionally twist a spell to a non-destructive use doesn't change its fundamental nature.

And everyone would be happy if the police walked around with mindcontrol powers? Get serious.

Is everyone happy that the police walk around with loaded guns?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

From a religious standpoint Dominate is an abrogation of free will, and therefor evil.

The question beyond that is how does it compare to some of the alternatives - torture, durance, and death?

For sins in their own right the use of Dominate is an aggravation - to use Dominate to steal adds to the sin.

To use Dominate to force another to commit a sin is to bear the sin upon the caster's shoulders. The sin was not made by the sinner's free will, there was no point of decision, save on the part of the caster.

To prevent pain and suffering it becomes more grey - but the sin is still born by the caster, though of a lesser stain.

To resist against a sin, in game terms 'making a Will save' there is virtue, most especially when the caster is urging the victim to commit a sin for which the victim hols temptation.

The Auld Grump, who has been reading Thomas of Aquinas again....

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, felt guilty, and tried to sell the world on non-violent uses of the H-bomb. The world agreed that that was a bad idea. I'm sure you can come with a lot of creative uses for a 30-ft. radius ball of fire, but wisdom should tell you there's safer, cheaper tools for most of them.

Operation Plowshare... a very silly idea, even at the time. 27 unnecessary nuclear explosions....

The Auld Grump

 

[jonesy]

Your DM must be pretty generous; my characters are frequently in spaces and situations where they can't just burn everything in a large area safely.

Like I said, if you make the example specific enough you can say anything. But again, not the point.

No, but the fact that you can occasionally twist a spell to a non-destructive use doesn't change its fundamental nature.

Yes, it does. That's what it means. For those uses.

And yes, even nuclear bombs can be used for peaceful purposes. Primary examples would be a Verne Gun, and Project Orion. Getting mass into space, and moving mass in space. I could say a lot of bitter things about priorities of the world here, but politics are off-limits and I won't.

Is everyone happy that the police walk around with loaded guns?

I'm a hundred times happier that they have guns than if they had mind-control powers. At least now I can tell whether I'm happy or not.