Is E-Tools worth it?

[DonTadow]

But that's still distributing WotC IP. Do the people doing so have a license from WotC allowing them to do so?

Not sure about the legality considering you own the properity already and are simply typing "notes" and sharing those notes with other people who own the properity. Couldn't see the difference between that and readinga textbook and sharing notes with your buddy.

 

[Mynex]

Not sure about the legality considering you own the properity already and are simply typing "notes" and sharing those notes with other people who own the properity. Couldn't see the difference between that and readinga textbook and sharing notes with your buddy.

The problem here is not that you and someone else own the same book, the problem is in the distribution of the files, that is the illegal aspect of this.

Someone once made a really good example to me (can't rem who or I'd attribute their name to it)...

Just because you own the book, "I, Robot", doesn't mean that you are entitled to a free copy of the movie, or a free copy of the 'audio book'. Those are 3 seperate media. Yes, it's all the same _content_ but the format is different.

You're not paying for the book, the movie, and the audio book, you're paying for the time/effort/work involved to create those different formats of the same content.

So while it IS all the same content, it is NOT the same 'product' and you are NOT entitled to have all 3 versions just because you bought 1 version.

And 'password protecting' the zips is a joke... I'm sorry, I could download every zip, make a list of what words I needed and go into FLGS and simply look up the info I needed. Get real here, that is not 'protection', it's a lazy attempt of it so people can say "well we were protecting the info for people who own the product" so they can make themselves feel like they're not stealing.

By sharing the scripts with everyone, it's stealing, pure and simple, from WotC who owns the content. And in the end, if WotC decides they've had enough, they can make life very unpleasant for any person/program that they feel is violating their ideas, trademarks, and copyrights, etc... the content.

Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else agree's, doesn't matter what arguments you or anyone else may have, in the end, the decision about what violates things with WotC's, is WotC's, period. And unless you're willing to shell out the $$ to fight WotC in court, your opinion doesn't matter.

Sorry to be so blunt about it, but people need to understand the differences here, and so many people don't.

As for CMP's data being too expensive... I won't bother to get into it over the pricing other than to say this; "You have 3 choices in the end; 1. Buy the data, 2. Don't buy the data, 3. Enter the information yourself".

If it's too expensive for you, don't buy it.

 

[DonTadow]

The problem here is not that you and someone else own the same book, the problem is in the distribution of the files, that is the illegal aspect of this.

Someone once made a really good example to me (can't rem who or I'd attribute their name to it)...

Just because you own the book, "I, Robot", doesn't mean that you are entitled to a free copy of the movie, or a free copy of the 'audio book'. Those are 3 seperate media. Yes, it's all the same _content_ but the format is different.

You're not paying for the book, the movie, and the audio book, you're paying for the time/effort/work involved to create those different formats of the same content.

So while it IS all the same content, it is NOT the same 'product' and you are NOT entitled to have all 3 versions just because you bought 1 version.

And 'password protecting' the zips is a joke... I'm sorry, I could download every zip, make a list of what words I needed and go into FLGS and simply look up the info I needed. Get real here, that is not 'protection', it's a lazy attempt of it so people can say "well we were protecting the info for people who own the product" so they can make themselves feel like they're not stealing.

By sharing the scripts with everyone, it's stealing, pure and simple, from WotC who owns the content. And in the end, if WotC decides they've had enough, they can make life very unpleasant for any person/program that they feel is violating their ideas, trademarks, and copyrights, etc... the content.

Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else agree's, doesn't matter what arguments you or anyone else may have, in the end, the decision about what violates things with WotC's, is WotC's, period. And unless you're willing to shell out the $$ to fight WotC in court, your opinion doesn't matter.

Sorry to be so blunt about it, but people need to understand the differences here, and so many people don't.

As for CMP's data being too expensive... I won't bother to get into it over the pricing other than to say this; "You have 3 choices in the end; 1. Buy the data, 2. Don't buy the data, 3. Enter the information yourself".

If it's too expensive for you, don't buy it.

I'm sorry, we're not talking about e-tools, we're talking about dmgenie. The scripts are no more WOTC's IP than my note's from my program. WOTC did not produce the scripts. Us programers program in things we need into the system and give them to others so that they do not have to do the programming. WE do not gouge or double gogue the user. All I"m saying is that dmgenie is easier to program with and easier to share the notes that you've programed. 30 bucks for 10 prcs and some feats is something that may fly with e-tools (ahh i remember the days when e-tools and pc-gen were for the community) but if i could easily program them in or do my share to program a script with another program that does the same functionality for free I'd rather go that route.

I'm not saying wotc's not rich and can win any courtcase it wants. Thus the demise of pc-gen. I'm saying that DMgenie is simple, virtual basic and the classes and feats of any book can be programmed in very easily by a novice. There are many forums that you can contact users who will share their programmed scripts with and you don't have to worry about 30 dollar editions for a 40 dollar book you already bought.

 

[Elephant]

The problem here is not that you and someone else own the same book, the problem is in the distribution of the files, that is the illegal aspect of this.

Someone once made a really good example to me (can't rem who or I'd attribute their name to it)...

Just because you own the book, "I, Robot", doesn't mean that you are entitled to a free copy of the movie, or a free copy of the 'audio book'. Those are 3 seperate media. Yes, it's all the same _content_ but the format is different.

You're not paying for the book, the movie, and the audio book, you're paying for the time/effort/work involved to create those different formats of the same content.

So while it IS all the same content, it is NOT the same 'product' and you are NOT entitled to have all 3 versions just because you bought 1 version.

And 'password protecting' the zips is a joke... I'm sorry, I could download every zip, make a list of what words I needed and go into FLGS and simply look up the info I needed. Get real here, that is not 'protection', it's a lazy attempt of it so people can say "well we were protecting the info for people who own the product" so they can make themselves feel like they're not stealing.

By sharing the scripts with everyone, it's stealing, pure and simple, from WotC who owns the content. And in the end, if WotC decides they've had enough, they can make life very unpleasant for any person/program that they feel is violating their ideas, trademarks, and copyrights, etc... the content.

Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else agree's, doesn't matter what arguments you or anyone else may have, in the end, the decision about what violates things with WotC's, is WotC's, period. And unless you're willing to shell out the $$ to fight WotC in court, your opinion doesn't matter.

Sorry to be so blunt about it, but people need to understand the differences here, and so many people don't.

As for CMP's data being too expensive... I won't bother to get into it over the pricing other than to say this; "You have 3 choices in the end; 1. Buy the data, 2. Don't buy the data, 3. Enter the information yourself".

If it's too expensive for you, don't buy it.

It's not stealing. At worst, it's copyright infringement.

And the argument quoted above seems specious at best, being an excuse for publishers to attempt to gouge more money out of customers. Regardless of which program you use, you can manually enter data from new purchases. If you have a friend who has already entered the data from that purchase, why not share? It saves a lot of time on duplication of effort.

As to password-protecting the files on the server...you're right, it's a joke of an effort to put a barrier up against further copyright infringement. If they were serious, they would install a monitoring program on the computers of the website visitors that prevented them from infringing any copyrights, ever by taking control of their computers.

Oh, wait, that's how viruses and spyware work. Maybe we should leave people's computers under their direct control.

And unless you're willing to shell out the $$ to fight WotC in court, your opinion doesn't matter.

I'm appalled by this sentiment. Bad business practices should NEVER trump the rights of individuals.

Regardless of the idiotic legalities of the situation, it's a stupid argument - customers are crying out for better products (i.e. datasets included with books without exhorbitant fees attached), and the corporation is ignoring the needs of its market. Thus, the customers find ways to attain these things. The whole thing is a customer service failure on a massive scale on WOTC's part.

 

[kingpaul]

I'm sorry, we're not talking about e-tools, we're talking about dmgenie.

Right, and Mynex was addressing the scripts and password protection of DMGenie files.

The scripts are no more WOTC's IP than my note's from my program. WOTC did not produce the scripts.

But the material that the scripts you earlier mentioned are based on WotC's IP. If you want to do this for your own use, that's fine. Its the distribution of WotC's IP is what's being discussed.

Us programers program in things we need into the system and give them to others so that they do not have to do the programming.

And making a versatile tool so others can enter in their own data is not the issue

WE do not gouge or double gogue the user. All I"m saying is that dmgenie is easier to program with and easier to share the notes that you've programed. 30 bucks for 10 prcs and some feats is something that may fly with e-tools (ahh i remember the days when e-tools and pc-gen were for the community) but if i could easily program them in or do my share to program a script with another program that does the same functionality for free I'd rather go that route.

But once again, if a script is created based upon a book by WotC, and is available online, that is distributing WotC's IP. And for CMP charging for their datasets, they pay people to create said datasets *and* licensing fees to WotC *and* want to make a profit on their work. As Mynex said, you can a) buy the set, b) not buy the set or c) create the set yourself for yourself.

I'm not saying wotc's not rich and can win any courtcase it wants. Thus the demise of pc-gen.

PCGen has undergone a demise? When did that happen? We just won an ENnie, so I don't think we're down and out.

I'm saying that DMgenie is simple, virtual basic and the classes and feats of any book can be programmed in very easily by a novice. There are many forums that you can contact users who will share their programmed scripts with and you don't have to worry about 30 dollar editions for a 40 dollar book you already bought.

And that's great that its easy for people to use. However, the distribution of WotC IP is still the distribution of WotC IP. And what dataset costs $30?

 

[kingpaul]

It's not stealing. At worst, it's copyright infringement.

Still illegal

And the argument quoted above seems specious at best, being an excuse for publishers to attempt to gouge more money out of customers.

How is gouging if the content is rendered into a different medium? Book, audio book, movie.

Regardless of which program you use, you can manually enter data from new purchases.

I don't believe anyone here has said that's a problem.

If you have a friend who has already entered the data from that purchase, why not share? It saves a lot of time on duplication of effort.

Because that's distributing the IP that you don't own.

Regardless of the idiotic legalities of the situation, it's a stupid argument - customers are crying out for better products (i.e. datasets included with books without exhorbitant fees attached), and the corporation is ignoring the needs of its market. Thus, the customers find ways to attain these things. The whole thing is a customer service failure on a massive scale on WOTC's part.

So infringing on someone's IP is alright because you think it shouldn't be that way?

 

[DonTadow]

Can a paint company sue you for selling or freely giving your works? I would hopefully not confuse this with file sharing which is another subject.

This is me, basing my script off of a class for a book. So what if I change two feats? What if i change the name? I mean obviously this could easily be done but why?

I guess this conversation is moot though and we've turned this iin to intelictual rights vs. free distrubution.

To get back to the subject I use dmgenie because there are many scripts avaialbe and lots of content and theres no gouging by the . The product is company. I prefer to stick with companies outside of wotc. The updates are always free and its a rich community. Call the scripters thieves, demons devils whatever. But the product works and people help you.

 

[kingpaul]

I would hopefully not confuse this with file sharing which is another subject.

I'm talking about IP infringement, not file sharing.

This is me, basing my script off of a class for a book. So what if I change two feats? What if i change the name? I mean obviously this could easily be done but why?

And if you do this for your own use, that's fine. Its the distribution that is what's being discussed.

I guess this conversation is moot though and we've turned this iin to intelictual rights vs. free distrubution.

And its the distribution of another group's IP that I'm talking about

To get back to the subject I use dmgenie because there are many scripts avaialbe and lots of content and theres no gouging by the . The product is company. I prefer to stick with companies outside of wotc. The updates are always free and its a rich community. Call the scripters thieves, demons devils whatever. But the product works and people help you.

And getting back to that, those scripts, if based upon WotC's IP, are infringing upon WotC's IP; unless a license from WotC is obtained. If the datasets/scripts are based upon OGC, and follow the OGL, then there is no problem.

And if you go to CMP's forums or PCGen's forums for questions on their products, they will help you as well.

 

[sfgiants]

Interesting debate I stumbled onto I guess...but anyways...I don't have a problem paying 30 bucks for a program if it speeds up NPC creation for me. Is E-tools user friendly? Is it mostly bug free? I only need 3.0 version, because that is what my group prefers.

PS: As an aside to the downloading issue, any one here could get e-tools for free off of file sharing, I just prefer to pay so that CMP gets money for its product...

 

[kingpaul]

Is E-tools user friendly?

I find it to be so, but I use PCGen primarily.

Is it mostly bug free?

I believe the core set is, yes. From watching CMP's boards, there are bug reports that are brought up on various sets. These are then fixed for their bimonthly dataset updates.

I only need 3.0 version, because that is what my group prefers.

eTools comes with the 3.0 PHB, DMG and MM. If you want any other 3.0 books, you'll have to buy them. There is a discount if you buy bundles.