Is E-Tools worth it?

[msd]

You think we should create a FAQ on why distributing another person's IP without their permission is illegal?

Again...a little snide for this discussion. That really seems to be an oversimplication of what the poster was asking for.

Everyone, at a general level, understands the contours of the law of intellectual property and copyright in particular. In my experience (as a law student focusing on intellectual property), the number of people who understand the details of what specifically is acceptable and what is not is a far smaller number.

He wasn't asking for you to restate the obvious in a FAQ. He was asking for a FAQ that clears up legitimate points of concern or confusion to people who have no intention of violating the law but might nonetheless be inadvertently doing so, i.e. "I think it's ok for me to use the dataset I found on the internet because I paid for a legitimate copy of the book."

If anything, a FAQ like that serves to protect further your own property rights and pre-emptively establishes the fact that your customers have been put on notice as to what does and does not violate your rights.

 

[Samuel Leming]

You think we should create a FAQ on why distributing another person's IP without their permission is illegal?

Sure. A big part of this issue is what is IP and what isn't IP. Putting your views on that in a FAQ would make it easier to get your point across without all the sturm und drang getting in the way.

If you're tired of repeating yourself, a FAQ just may be the answer to the problem.

Sam

 

[Samuel Leming]

Again...a little snide for this discussion. That really seems to be an oversimplication of what the poster was asking for.

Yeah, I think he's pretty much circled his wagons at this point.

He wasn't asking for you to restate the obvious in a FAQ. He was asking for a FAQ that clears up legitimate points of concern or confusion to people who have no intention of violating the law but might nonetheless be inadvertently doing so, i.e. "I think it's ok for me to use the dataset I found on the internet because I paid for a legitimate copy of the book."

Yep, that's part of it.

I'm also making a suggestion that would help them to get through these discussions without further damage to their rep.

Sam

 

[DonTadow]

Pardon me for having a dificult time believing that. You've stated in your previous posts that you used PCGen but don't because of WotC pushing its 'demise'. If you knew about that from back then, you knew about it back then.

To clarify ( i think you have the wrong quote)

I have a friend Bill. He his views are just aobut with mine but he still downloads pcgen for the sake of dl'n it. He's always asking me to look at it or the new update. I"m always curious as to if they'll put as much effort to it as their commercial e-tools.

I re installed and updated etools last year because I needed statblocks for yuan-ti which didn't have a dmgenie script yet. Counting thedifferent armsl, legs, and such ther are 10. Got the statblocks, installed them in dmgenie's statblock copy paste method.

Now, go ahead, repeat your argument about ip and such. My ip my ip. The clone wars have begun.

I said it a while ago.

::applaud::

We enjoy your opinion but this subject is getting drilled into ground. I have never come across it before, but I can see how it can get annoying to see.

He bought your product. Be happy. Do your dance of joy. This thread should be closed because its purpose has been completed. A asked question. B. everyone gave advice. C. someone on high horse gives lecture on IP D. person makes decision. .

 

[kingpaul]

Again...a little snide for this discussion. That really seems to be an oversimplication of what the poster was asking for.

I was not being snide, I was asking an honest question. He requested a FAQ and I wanted to determine what he wanted the FAQ to be about.

He wasn't asking for you to restate the obvious in a FAQ. He was asking for a FAQ that clears up legitimate points of concern or confusion to people who have no intention of violating the law but might nonetheless be inadvertently doing so, i.e. "I think it's ok for me to use the dataset I found on the internet because I paid for a legitimate copy of the book."

Fine, but that wasn't made explicit in his statement. I was seeking clarification.

If anything, a FAQ like that serves to protect further your own property rights and pre-emptively establishes the fact that your customers have been put on notice as to what does and does not violate your rights.

Which has been stated, repeated, on numerous forums. This is the first time, to my recollection, a request has been made for PCGen, CMP and WotC to create a jointly maintained FAQ.

 

[IronWolf]

You think we should create a FAQ on why distributing another person's IP without their permission is illegal?

If you are tired of answering the same questions again and again over a period of three years then a FAQ sounds like a mighty fine idea. The suggestions made by msd and Samuel Leming in subsequent posts are quite good and would certainly address the need to rehash these issues again and again.

Then in the future when this comes up - and it will, not everyone has been around these topics for 3 years - you drop a single link in a reply in an informative manner and avoid discussion deteriorates into one that is more likely to alienate folks. Sounds like everyone wins to me.

EDIT: And of course your reply shows up just before mine, so ignore what is now irrelevant.

 

[kingpaul]

To clarify ( i think you have the wrong quote)

My apologies then. You did mention PCGen's demise, which is what I was referring to.

I have a friend Bill. He his views are just aobut with mine but he still downloads pcgen for the sake of dl'n it. He's always asking me to look at it or the new update. I"m always curious as to if they'll put as much effort to it as their commercial e-tools.

Once again, CMP != PCGen. They are two separate entities.

CMP is a for-profit organization that is licensed by WotC to create datasets based upon their IP. These datasets are for PCGen and eTools. The work on eTools and the datasets for PCGen and eTools are paid-for by CMP to their various contractors.

PCGen is an open-source project that is done by volunteers.

I re installed and updated etools last year because I needed statblocks for yuan-ti which didn't have a dmgenie script yet. Counting thedifferent armsl, legs, and such ther are 10. Got the statblocks, installed them in dmgenie's statblock copy paste method.

Now, go ahead, repeat your argument about ip and such. My ip my ip. The clone wars have begun.

I said it a while ago.

::applaud::

Where have I said that you aren't allowed to make *personal* use of the material? I was talking about distributing said material.

He bought your product. Be happy. Do your dance of joy.

Not my product, I'm not an agent of CMP.

C. someone on high horse gives lecture on IP.

The IP distribution was brought up in this thread because it was mentioned, by you specifically, about being able to find data for DMGenie based upon WotC's IP.

 

[Samuel Leming]

Not my product, I'm not an agent of CMP.

Ah, that I didn’t know. I take it you’re a PCGen volunteer?

I was not being snide, I was asking an honest question. He requested a FAQ and I wanted to determine what he wanted the FAQ to be about.

Really it was more of a suggest than a request.

Fine, but that wasn't made explicit in his statement. I was seeking clarification.

Actually I’m not fully aware of which issues keep popping up. Put in whatever you’re tired of repeating.

Which has been stated, repeated, on numerous forums. This is the first time, to my recollection, a request has been made for PCGen, CMP and WotC to create a jointly maintained FAQ.

Heh. It was still just a suggestion. Would it have to be a joint effort?

Sam

 

[Mynex]

Ah, that I didn’t know. I take it you’re a PCGen volunteer?



Really it was more of a suggest than a request.



Actually I’m not fully aware of which issues keep popping up. Put in whatever you’re tired of repeating.



Heh. It was still just a suggestion. Would it have to be a joint effort?

Sam

Okahy, addressing a few posts in this one... and to make it clear, I'm not picking on any one person here...

First off, my initial posts were not "high horse" responses, they were factual. a few people wanted to argue the 'moral aspects' which I did not feel so inclined to do. And then someone got rude with me, so I responded in kind. Sorry if that sits ill with people, but tough, I ain't taking abuse from anyone for stating facts.

This is a text medium, intent and infelction are not easily expressed here, please keep that in mind before telling someone they're on a high horse...

I'm still not interested in debating the moral aspects, it's pointless, because everyone has their own view points on the matter. The facts, as they stand now, is that distribution of Intellectual Property is illegal, flat out, no other argument for it, plenty against (and with court cases... Can you say Napster?), and if something is illegal, and you participate, then you are a criminal, dot, period, end of story.

THAT is a fact, not an opinion.

Next bit - this is short and sweet... An company is going to take 'heat' for someone saying something at some time or another... just a fact of business... but in this case, when illegal activity is not just going on, but touted about, taking the advice of "Maybe you shouldn't be your companies spokesperson"... well, just doesn't carry any weight with us.

That out of the way... the FAQ bit...

There is a bit of this covered in the PCGen help files... outlining without nitty-gritty details what transpired back in 2002 at GenCon...

I'll discuss with WotC and the Open Source crew about putting together a full blown FAQ, that is an excellent idea. And incidentally, is totally seperate from the discussion over what is and isn't legal.

The what is and isn't legal FAQ, well, that won't happen... There's a lot of reasons why, but boil it down to: "That's legal advice, and CMP, WotC, and the Open Source Project are not law firms to dispense such advice"


And the last thing...
PCGen the code and the OGL data sets - That's the Open Source Project - CMP has nothing to do with their goals, agenda's release cycle, coding practices, etc... We work with them certainly, we request changes here and there, certainly, and we have overlap from us of volunteers and volunteers that we've paid for work, certainly... but we are 2 seperate entities.

CMP is a company that evolved from the Open Source Project to have a 'company' that WotC could deal with to distribute their material. A Q&A Control system, reporting, financials, and all that other fun stuff that larger companies like to know about... makes em feel all 'warm & fuzzy' inside.

We were contracted, because of our PCGen experience, to fix e-Tools (and if you weren't around for the initial release fiasco of that, just ask, plenty of people perfectly willing to extoll that one!) of 41 items. To date, with the code enhancement stopped finally, 6 patches later, we've fixed over 1000 bugs from the original code, added support for a lot of functionality, and we produce data sets _for sale_ for e-Tools & PCGen.

That's the long & short of it folks.

 

[kingpaul]

Ah, that I didn’t know. I take it you’re a PCGen volunteer?

Yep, its in my signature. Granted, because of how the forum software is set up here, you only get your sig once/page. If you go to my first post on this page, you'll see my titles with PCGen.