Is "GM Agency" A Thing?

[Hussar]

They have all the influence over it. They had choices -- deal with the thieves guild or go off to the distant adventure site -- and they chose to ignore the thieves guild. The state of the city on their return is based on the decision they made.

Do you think the world should freeze in place as soon as the PCs move out of view, like in a video game?

Yup.

Because as far as the players are concerned that’s exactly the way the world works. The thieves guild isn’t a “consequence”. It’s a plot hook. It’s no different than a dragon moving in or a thousand other plot hooks. The only reason they matter now is because the dm decided to make them matter.

As far as the players are concerned, they had zero input into this. It’s an interesting adventure sure. No problems with that. And frankly that’s how most games work.

But this pretense that it’s some sort of “living world” or “consequence” is just smoke and mirrors. It’s a convenient fiction that dms tell themselves so they can sneer down their noses at games that actually actively allow the players to determine these sorts of things.

Imagine instead that the you have a side game played over email or Discord between sessions where each player controls a faction in the town and the reason that the thieves guild has become dominant is because of how that side game played out.

Now the players are actually directly engaged in the events of the town. That’s what a “living setting” looks like. Dms simply dictating results isn’t a living world at all. It’s fanfic writing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yup.

More evidence that our styles and preferences (and what both of us have are preferences, not @Hussar 's True Facts About Gaming) are completely incompatible, and neither of us would likely enjoy playing with the other.

 

[Reynard]

Yup.

Noted.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yup.

You have implied that your players do not really care about the settings. Have you considered that they don't take the setting seriously because you don't either?

 

[Aldarc]

You have implied that your players do not really care about the settings. Have you considered that they don't take the setting seriously because you don't either?

I doubt that this line of loaded questioning that blames the problem on the poster will end well.

 

[Hussar]

Sorry I did add a further but in an edit.

But @Micah Sweet considering you’ve done nothing but take huge steaming dumps on all things WotC for the past several years, why would you possibly think your and my table are even remotely compatible? You actively dislike every single thing in the game that I like and have made that point abundantly clear over and over and over again.

Of COURSE we would hate to sit at each other’s tables. Why is that even a question?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sorry I did add a further but in an edit.

But @Micah Sweet considering you’ve done nothing but take huge steaming dumps on all things WotC for the past several years, why would you possibly think your and my table are even remotely compatible? You actively dislike every single thing in the game that I like and have made that point abundantly clear over and over and over again.

Of COURSE we would hate to sit at each other’s tables. Why is that even a question?

I never got the impression that you were a huge WotC-stan (not that I haven't seen folks who cleave to that around here sometimes). My issue was more about your sweeping general statements about the Truth of Gaming sprinkled down upon us from on high. But fair enough.

 

[Maxperson]

Meh. The players really don't care about your fanfic. They don't. I'm sorry, but, they don't care. It's hard enough to get players to read an actual campaign document, let alone give a fig about what's happening three countries over. The whole "depth" thing is largely DM facing. The players care about what they are doing and what impacts them directly.

I'll thank you not to speak for my players. The looks of delight on their faces when things like that happen is enough for me to know that they do care. They care about this. They care about the world moving about outside of their view and also delight in and mention when I use some deep piece of world lore in an adventure.

And the reason for this is because the players are not allowed to have any impact on the game world beyond their characters. As a player, why should I possibly care what NPC 1 does to NPC 2 when it has nothing to do with my character? I have nothing connecting me to those two NPC's.

How would that even work? I can't envision how they would have an impact beyond their character unless they were authoring stuff outside their character, but that completely defeats the purpose of it feeling like the world keeps moving beyond them.

Now, if I am allowed to actually create part of that "three countries over" country, then, now, as a player, I am invested in that to some degree. That's something I know about and have some influence over.

And a lot of people like doing that. We are all different and have different likes and dislikes when it comes to gaming. Just because you wouldn't care about the way I run things, doesn't meant that there aren't others that do.

The only person who cares is the DM.

There are at least 4(my players) others, and I suspect that there are a great deal more than that out there who care about it.

 

[Maxperson]

But, again, this is just the DM rolling up the plot wagon. The players have zero influence over this. They aren't there.

That's not precisely true. They influenced it by opting to leave it alone for 5 months rather than taking care of it or dealing with it 1 month later.

Again, this is all 100% the players passively engaging in the setting

But this is 100% not true. They actively influenced the setting by choosing to leave and do something else for 5 months. That's an active choice that has active influence. Their influence over the result of the thieves guild was passive, but the rest is not.

The players in a living, breathing world have a combination of active and passive influences going on at pretty much all times. They learn about stuff and engage or not. That engagement or lack of it determines if their influence over a particular thing is active or passive.

 

[Reynard]

Yup.

Because as far as the players are concerned that’s exactly the way the world works. The thieves guild isn’t a “consequence”. It’s a plot hook. It’s no different than a dragon moving in or a thousand other plot hooks. The only reason they matter now is because the dm decided to make them matter.

As far as the players are concerned, they had zero input into this. It’s an interesting adventure sure. No problems with that. And frankly that’s how most games work.

But this pretense that it’s some sort of “living world” or “consequence” is just smoke and mirrors. It’s a convenient fiction that dms tell themselves so they can sneer down their noses at games that actually actively allow the players to determine these sorts of things.

Imagine instead that the you have a side game played over email or Discord between sessions where each player controls a faction in the town and the reason that the thieves guild has become dominant is because of how that side game played out.

Now the players are actually directly engaged in the events of the town. That’s what a “living setting” looks like. Dms simply dictating results isn’t a living world at all. It’s fanfic writing.

You are right to say that most games do work that way, and I think it would be important for the GM to clearly explain that they were trying to do something different. But I don't think we can chalk it up to the GM writing fanfic, at least not always.

One tool for successful improvisational GMing is to "wind the clock." You create a situation and the NPCs involved (with their requisite motivations, resources, relationships, etc) and you determine what would happen if the PCs never got involved. This is the "fan-fic" you were talking about.

But once the PCs enter the situation, that "fan fic" exists to make it easy for you to respond to whatever the players decide to do once they come in contact with the situation -- including doing nothing (in which case, the "fan-fic" outcome occurs).

So, you aren't wrong, after a fashion, but you are ascribing a much less charitable GM motivation than is likely actually involved.