Is it DnD, or MtG? (General Griping)

[diaglo]

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree about the equipment part.

I played Basic D&D, 1e, 2e, and now 3.0 and 3.5. Before all the skills, feats, etc., every character past 3rd level was defined by his or her equipment. Especially weapons. Oh, and potions... wands... staffs... rods... oh, and rings...

I'd say now you have much more opportunities to make your character unique without focusing on items, IMHO.

you need to play real D&D then.

OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.

 

[diaglo]

Quick, get me a flask of oil and a torch...

***

Look, there's a dead horse, hand me a stick...

***

YAWBT (Yet another WOTC Bashing Thread).

yet, if you buy the 30 years of Adventure by WotC... it pretty much says a lot of what he is arguing. almost word for word from Peter Adkison... the founder of WotC.

 

[fredramsey]

If I throw a stick, will you go away?

you need to play real D&D then.

OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.

 

[Mallus]

Is it me, or do these new DnD rules (3.0 & 3.5) seem to be going the way of Magic: the Gathering?

I don't miss AD&D as a ruleset at all... but I've often said about 3.0/3.5 "This is just like Magic: The Purchasing", and I don't recall meaning it as a compliment.

And now, a few remarks...

1) 3.0/3.5 is a really good system, though I like d20 Modern or AU better, in terms of design elagance.

2) Magic: The Gathering was a really good system, too.

3) Both games suffered from a bloat of game materials [as did every prior incarnation of ODD & ADD. At least with 3.0/3.5 there isn't a series of competing resolution mechanics].

4) What irritates me a little with 3.0/3.5 is the vast Sargasso Sea of PrC's out there. Its a minor irritation, but still... Customization options are great. But I think the feat mechanic is a better way to go --of course, there's a Sargasso Sea of them too.

The designers opted to retain the whole 'class/archtype' thing. Fine. But if you have a zillion of something, they, by definition, they are no longer 'archtypal'. I like what Monte did with AU... put the focus back on a small number of good fantasy archtypes --incuding workable swashbucklers and figther/mages-- and make a lot of most often cherry-picked class abilities --like evasion and sneak attack-- feats.

Just as much customization, more streamlined system. PrC's are okay, but rampant use of them still means players get saddled with abilities they neither wanted nor envisioned for their characters.

 

[Psion]

For example, crpgs typically depend more on gear to make you better. I think that's more true in 3e than 2e.

I don't. There were no guidelines as to what treasure was appropraite; it was just what you rolled or picked. 8th level characters could easily have a staff of the magi, an item which is considered artifact level power.

Of course, if you already played "stingier" than this, well, that's all well and good, but the fact remains that there was not a standard before. That you saw an increase in dependance where I see a massive DECREASE should be unsurprising because of said lack of standard.

 

[Henry]

I don't see it, but rather saw MORE dependence than less in my 1e, 2e, and basic games.

With that said, let's try to put some distance between this thread and any "edition wars" anyone has planned. We try not to let those spread here, mainly because of the harsh feelings they tend to generate.

 

[Henry]

If I throw a stick, will you go away?

Guys, let's please give it a rest, here. And Diaglo, nous comprenons.

 

[fredramsey]

nevermind

 

[Mr. Kaze]

It used to be "This is how I stopped Lord soandso while in the Temple of Truely bad things!"

Now it's "if you mix this with that, and add some of tihs, no one can touch you!!"

I think it can probably be summed up as: Too many tactics, too little worldbuilding.

When you're out golfing, you've got all these clubs you can use and you make your choices depending on the situation.

When you're doing a 18-hole crawl with high-level casters, you can use whatever club you want and use divinations and abjurations to make up the difference by rendering the interesting and unique parts of the course moot.

This is why DMs (who put together these, in their mind, beautiful golf courses) generally like the new DR style while players (who frequently just want to impress their friends by coming in below par with a hole-in-one or two on some course they've not seen before) like the new "transmutes to any metal you want!" stuff -- it's in Underdark, IIRC... Which may be why we're see so many posts from DMs about variant rules and low-magic campaigns.

I'm looking at things like the generic classes + racial paragon as the basis of characters for the next campaign I run. A bit reduced in magic b/c of the "spontaneous casting only" generic caster, but not significantly inhibited...

::Kaze (notes that the situation that everybody remembers the party being in was the one where they didn't use spellcasting to get through it at all. And boy did that trap take a while to set up like that...)

 

[Krieg]

i'm a grognard. i came from the wargaming side of things before i ever played D&D.

Heh, and here I always thought you had actually campaigned with the Old Guard.

I don't. There were no guidelines as to what treasure was appropraite; it was just what you rolled or picked. 8th level characters could easily have a staff of the magi, an item which is considered artifact level power.

Good points, but I do think a pretty strong case can be made that the so called guidelines are so lenient that if they had been place with earlier editions the "Monty Haul" label would have been slapped on them.

I don't think anyone can argue that CRPGs have had an influence on some of the mechanics of D20 which in and of itself is not a bad thing. Those same mechanics are more modular in nature and offer far greater flexibility than their forebears. That is a very, very good thing.

For me the problem stems from the CRPG "mindset" that has also jumped the barrier to cross-pollinate the perceptions of how to utilize those rule sets.

The mechanics are not the issue, they are merely a tool. The devil is in the implementation.