D&D 5E Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?

[FormerlyHemlock]

My understanding of Polymorph was that it would effectively be dispelled by the Antimagic Field, so I didn't want to use it until they were gone. This meant it was insanely hard to find an opportunity to use it; they could too easily counter it. Of course, the eventual neutering of the 9th level slot by Deathward was a lucky break for the players, and one that probably helped save them from a TPK.

Antimagic Field temporarily suppresses spell effects; it does not dispel them. E.g. the Forcecage that the cleric exited would have sprung right back into existence behind him.

Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the Sphere and can't protrude into it. A slot expended to cast a suppressed spell is consumed. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn't function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its Duration...

Spells: Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the Sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it.

 

[Caliban]

Really, you want to plant your flag here?

Do you? This is really a stupid thing to argue about, just saying.

 

[Sadras]

in 98 he had been running games for 8 years, I don't think that's a 'new' DM and since as of today he still runs with the same rules and sees nothing the matter with it, you will excuse me if I don't agree on it being 'a newbie' thing.

Okay we can disagree on that issue. If he runs games like that today then I would easily place him in the bad-DM camp.
But don't you think it would be disingenuous for me to say in a debate about 4e hey GM 4e is crap based on young DM/bad DM example?

I was imprisoned and PCs had no way to get me out... seems like all the info you need is there, let me bold it

Here is the thing. Have you never been surprised by a DM?
I'm not saying this DM would have done it - but its not that far fetched for me to imagine a situation which initially appears impossible but the DM through narrating the story provides a surprising twist. As a basic example...TPK in combat only for party to be resurrected centuries later by a mysterious entity. Imprisoned, only for the magic spell to suddenly fail a few days later, as magic everywhere mysteriously waxes and wanes...
Remember my response was to your initial post - I had not know you had asked the DM whether your escape was possible.

here is pertinent info... an experienced DM who ran games for years used an old school gotcha trap and thought that I should spend the next 4-5 hours doing nothing, and some of you seem to agree and say the 'consequences' was for me to sit out, or that I was supposed to act like a baseball player waiting for a turn at bat...

Okay, I'm not here to defend other posters. I have had the luxury of 2 bad DMs IMO (they were brothers), who happened to run 4e.
I believe the reason they were poor at DMing were because their experience was largely homogenous - they had no exposure to differing styles and roleplayers which did little to grow them as DMs. (Side Note - That is why places like Enworld are great for the community - I firmly believe it creates better DM's and players).
Now I don't have an issue with 4e based on those bad DM's. You entered the conversation and blamed save-vs-suck on this bad DM - and here is the key thing to remember, bleachers-loving guy @Caliban even admitted this might have been something he would do 15 years ago. That is the sole reason where we are disagreeing (besides the save vs suck thing).

If a guy is out for a fight because save-vs-suck its not the end of the world at our table, the guys have fun - jesting, giving advice, making coffee...etc and we would NEVER have a guy be out for an entire session at our table - that is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY since we don't play as often as when we were teenagers/20 years old, so RPG-time is precious. So on that we agree, just not on the example you used in the debate to argue vs save-vs-suck

 

[Sadras]

Do you? This is really a stupid thing to argue about, just saying.

You know this is Enworld right?
Plus I'm replying to Hussar's post quoting me.

 

[Caliban]

You know this is Enworld right?
Plus I'm replying to Hussar's post quoting me.

Fair enough. I'm just mystified about how someone mentioning a minor incident that happened in a game 10+ years ago has somehow turned into an episode of CSI as you try to get to the bottom of it. And he's now on trial for not divulging all the pertinent details immediately. "Whether or not you are guilty of the initial crime, you are guilty of obstruction of justice!"

Oh, and let's not forget the accusations leveled at me because I happen to have an opinion on the matter.

The more I think about it, the more this whole thing seems sillier and sillier.

 

[Charles Rampant]

Antimagic Field temporarily suppresses spell effects; it does not dispel them. E.g. the Forcecage that the cleric exited would have sprung right back into existence behind him.

Oh, of course. We even ruled it correctly for Forcecage on that exact reasoning; but I never remembered to apply it to Shapechange.

I had a boss battle in my other group this week as well. Four level 5 characters against ten Bullywugs, Pharblex Spattergoo, and Dralmorrer Greyborn. I honestly found it much more entertaining to run than this one, in large part because of it being mechanically simpler and having far fewer moving parts, despite more actual combatants. My next campaign after the players reach level 20 and have some denouement stuff is going to be Adventures in Middle Earth, I think; level one would do the trick!

 

[Quickleaf]

Oh, of course. We even ruled it correctly for Forcecage on that exact reasoning; but I never remembered to apply it to Shapechange.

I had a boss battle in my other group this week as well. Four level 5 characters against ten Bullywugs, Pharblex Spattergoo, and Dralmorrer Greyborn. I honestly found it much more entertaining to run than this one, in large part because of it being mechanically simpler and having far fewer moving parts, despite more actual combatants. My next campaign after the players reach level 20 and have some denouement stuff is going to be Adventures in Middle Earth, I think; level one would do the trick!

During the shift from 4e to 5e, one of the criticisms leveled at 5e were the spellcaster stat-blocks requiring lots of looking things up. It's a legitimate criticism that is increasingly valid the higher level you play.

However, including all the spell info (even in condensed form) causes the stat-block to swell to an unmanageable size.

Currently, I'm writing a high-level adventure. One thing I decided early on was to include a Spell Index of all spells that appear in the adventure in condensed form, with the idea being the DM would print it out (~5 pages) and be able to look up, on the fly, for example sacred flame (bad example, I know, but only finished cantrips so far):

[SECTION]Sacred Flame Action; 60 ft; one creature you can see; Dex save (no benefit from cover); 1d8 radiant damage, 2d8 (5th), 3d8 (11th), 4d8 (17th)[/SECTION]

 

[DaveDash]

Has your party ever heard of Counterspell? Maybe they should look it up, particularly on a Bard or Abjurer.

 

[Seramus]

Fair? Yes.
Fun? No.

People show up to play D&D. Not sit and do nothing. Depriving any player the ability to take SOME kind of action during more than... let's say one round (this varies a little bit) is probably not going to be fun for your players.

Reminds me of a time I was joining a D&D game as a player, and the DM made me sit around for 4 hours while I waited for my character to be introduced. The DM wanted the introduction to make perfect sense in the context of the story, and apparently that was more important than 4 hours of my very limited time.

 

[cbwjm]

Fair? Yes.
Fun? No.

People show up to play D&D. Not sit and do nothing. Depriving any player the ability to take SOME kind of action during more than... let's say one round (this varies a little bit) is probably not going to be fun for your players.

Reminds me of a time I was joining a D&D game as a player, and the DM made me sit around for 4 hours while I waited for my character to be introduced. The DM wanted the introduction to make perfect sense in the context of the story, and apparently that was more important than 4 hours of my very limited time.

Yeah, some people do require a whole story behind PC introduction. My method is generally. "This is Mike. He's part of the group now." And then we all start playing.