Is it possible to flank when....?

[Water Bob]

Do you think its possible to flank a foe in one-on-one combat?

I have a player that says its impossible.

But, if you use the optional d20 Facing rules, it certainly is possible from time to time.

Last weekend, we played a session, and during it, there was an arena fight. Both characters used spears and were naked except for loin cloths.

The PC, with inititiave, moved in a horn shape towards his opponent and ended his turn about 15' from his enemy.

That enemy, on his turn, circled wide, using his entire 30' of movement, but was able to avoid the PC's threatened squares and come in on the PC's right flank for a +2 on his attack (under the Facing rules).



The question is: Should that be possible?



(And, if you think about it,the RAW version of flanking, where a character needs a partner on the EXACT other side of the target, is a bit "gamey" too.)

Thoughts?

 

[kitcik]

Yes, I think it is possible. In fact, it is likely that someone will post a YouTube video showing it is possible. It all depends on the speed, skill and tumbling ability of the attacker in comparison to the defender.

Imagine yourself fighting a giant sea turtle. I imagine you could flank it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Do you think its possible to flank a foe in one-on-one combat?

Define "flank."

 

[kitcik]

Here are the D20 facing rules.

In RL, I take it to mean gaining an advantage by attacking from an unexpected, or undefendable, direction.

 

[Water Bob]

Define "flank."

See below.

Here are the D20 facing rules.

In RL, I take it to mean gaining an advantage by attacking from an unexpected, or undefendable, direction.

What he said.





Imagine a character in square E, facing square B.

ABC
DEF
GHK

In front of him is defined as squares ABC. Left Flank is square D. Right Flank is square F.

Behind him is defined as squares GHK.


So, the question is: If two people are in melee combat, is is possible for a foe to enter and attack from square F (or D) while the character in square E is facing square B.

 

[Greenfield]

I think there's more to "flanking" someone than approaching from the side.

The flanking rules (sans facing) are talking about a situation where someone has opponents in positions where they can't possibly keep an eye on both at the same time. They have to divide their attention.

You catch them off guard, or "flat footed" as the rules say, and yeah, you'll have an edge. After that? It just isn't that easy. Splitting their focus works. Running in circles, not so much.

If you're trying to emulate RL conflict, you also have to emulate simultaneous reactions, where one person can spin in place faster than an opponent can circle them.

Watch a boxing match. Opponents circle, hit and move, dodge duck and block. But running around the other guy before he can react? Unless he's as slow as that turtle that got mentioned, it just doesn't work like that.

 

[Herzog]

Note the differences between flanking using the standard d20 rules and flanking using the optional facing rules:

using the standard rules, flanking someone means having an ally threatening the same opponent from a square opposite the square you occupy. You get a +2 bonus to attack rolls, and Rogues flanking in this way can use Sneak Attack (assuming the target isn't immune or concealed or something)

using the facing rules, flanking someone means standing to one of the sides of your opponent. You get a +2 bonus to attack rolls, but Rogues do NOT get to SA, not even when someone is on the opposite side.
Rogues only get to SA when they attack from the BACK of the opponent (again, regardless of whether there is an ally in the opposing square)

Now, the question was: should that be possible?

I think I would consider it someone dashing to the side, then doubling back towards the opponent (who is in the process of moving towards the spot you just were) and catching him slightly off-balance when you attack him from the side.

 

[kitcik]

I think there's more to "flanking" someone than approaching from the side.

The flanking rules (sans facing) are talking about a situation where someone has opponents in positions where they can't possibly keep an eye on both at the same time. They have to divide their attention..

Per the OP, we are using the facing rules.

Watch a boxing match. Opponents circle, hit and move, dodge duck and block. But running around the other guy before he can react? Unless he's as slow as that turtle that got mentioned, it just doesn't work like that.

Boxing has rules (such as attacking with your hands and staying on your feet) that intentionally severely limit the possibility of an attack from an unexpected direction.

Not to mention that both fighters are highly trained.

I suggest that if you got into a fight with, say, Bruce Lee, you would get flanked quite often (at least until you dropped). Oh, you might be able to turn your head in time to see the blow coming, but you wouldn't be able to defend yourself in any way.

I can't believe I am taking Water Bob's side lol.

 

[Water Bob]

I think there's more to "flanking" someone than approaching from the side.

There are strict rules for facing when using the Facing Rules, and anyone who attacks from a flank does not catch the defender flat-footed, but does get a +2 on their attack throw.

I can't believe I am taking Water Bob's side lol.

Can you feel the love?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think there's more to "flanking" someone than approaching from the side.

The flanking rules (sans facing) are talking about a situation where someone has opponents in positions where they can't possibly keep an eye on both at the same time. They have to divide their attention.

Yes, this.

If you are defining "flanking" as the [base] D&D rules do, then this is what flanking means.

On the other hand, if you're going with the variant facing rules, then it seems rather odd that, in the course of 6 seconds, we can both pirouette around each other and smack each other in the rear for each attack.

Plainly, the facing rules allow just this; whether or not it makes a great deal of sense is another thing entirely.

Note, though, that IMO:

gaining an advantage by attacking from an unexpected, or undefendable, direction.

... is almost always going to be better handled by a Feint - which renders your opponent flat-footed against your next attack against them.

Also, if you are going to include facing rules, you should expand them to make changing your facing an immediate action; this allows you to do it once a round on any character's turn. That way, you can't repeatedly pirouette around each other. You might also want to expand the feint rules, to make it possible to deny your opponent a chance to change his facing on your turn.