Is it possible to have a Chaotic society?

LuYangShih

First Post
I was looking at possible interpetations of a Chaotic society, and it seems to me there are few if any examples of such societies in the material I have. Even the supposedly Chaotic Elves are decidedly Lawful in all matters pertaining to justice, territory, armed forces and government. I figure a Chaotic society would be a number of small, independent groups that work together, but are free to do as they wish from group to group.

Do any of you think that would correctly model a Chaotic society, and if so, are there are any examples of such societies I can look at? And if not, what is a Chaotic society supposed to be based on?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Chaotic society is just that. It might endure when all participants have the same or similar goals, but no garentee's how long it will last.
 

I think that when speaking of a chaotic society, you have to think of a society in which there are few if any expectations that all individuals are expected to adhere to.

IRL, I am given to understand that in traditional Eskimo culture, it is considered rude to try to impose your laws on someone else, for example.
 

You need to figure out what "chaotic" means to even begin to figure out what a chaotic society is. Personally, I don't think there is a meaning that can be meaningfully and consistently applied to D&D societies without radically redefining the way that D&D societies are typically thought of (cities=lawful, primitive tribes and elves=chaotic, etc). The reason for this is that, IMO, the D&D concept of Chaos artificially links a number of ideas that have no actual real world correlation.

For instance, one possible (and very common) interpretation of chaotic is "placing personal, individual freedom as their pre-eminent value." This is contrasted with traditional societies which view group attachments, family honor, etc as pre-eminent. So, by that standard, the Protestant reformation was, by and large, a chaotic movement and the United States is one of the most chaotic societies on the planet.

On the other hand, chaotic is just as often defined as a preference for evaluating individual cases individually as opposed to evaluating them by set laws and standards. Thus the followers of an autocrat who is not bound by his own laws or who had the power to decide the when laws applied and what exceptions could be made would constitute a chaotic society. By this standard, the United States, at times, Ancient Rome and other societies which notably uphold the idea of the rule of law--epitomized in the phrase, "a nation ruled by laws rather than by men" are profoundly lawful. Similarly, by this standard, the Protestant Reformation which hearkened to a strict literal interpretation of scripture as opposed to the authoritative interpretation of scripture through a living church tradition would be a lawful movement rather than a chaotic. And traditional societies--such as many middle eastern monarchies--where the rulers wield more or less absolute and arbitrary power (over peoples who tend to identify as groups more than individuals and value things like family honor) would be considered chaotic rather than lawful.

Then there are more personal interpretations of law and chaos--a lawful person has ordered and considered thoughts and opinions that aren't likely to change/a chaotic person changes from one moment to the next. By this standard chaos comes to mean inconsistency (and, in extreme interpretations, insanity).

Or a lawful person has a tendency to obey existing authority structures/ a chaotic person is a rebel. By this standard, law/chaos is a relative standard as the East German political prisoner who is a chaotic rebel in the East German context becomes lawful when he is freed and becomes a member of the Bundesrat in the reunification. And George Washington is chaotic while leading the armies of the American Revolution but becomes lawful when Cornwallis surrenders.

IMO, the ideas generally linked to the law/chaos axis of D&D alignment don't belong together and, when just one idea is picked, it doesn't come close to the significance of good and evil in most peoples' thought. Which is why I tend to ignore it myself.
 

Elder-Basilisks points are well taken.....(and thus trying to avoid an alignment debate)

However limiting oneself to D&D definitions - the fewer individuals involved, the great proability of having a chaotic society. The problem is that more people = role specilization and stratification. Stratification means laws designed to protect what one has - laws (by D & D terms) means less chaotic.....
 


Elder-Basilisk has interesting points, but they are based on what is inherently a false assumption. The D&D alignment system is not subjective, it is objective. No matter what societal values present, a Chaotic person is always Chaotic, and a Lawful person is always Lawful. This does not change if you take a Chaotic person out of one society and place them in another, and vice versa for the Lawfully aligned person.


PS

Why use examples from the real world? This is D&D. Examples from fantasy literature or movies would be much better.
 

From all I've heard and read, a most dangerous contingent condition, the Comanche seem to have been a good model of a pretty successful chaotic society.

Lots of bands with pretty different values that had the capacity to join together for massive projects but lacked the coherence to ever really formulate treaties or stable institutions.

Early Germans would have been similar. Remember that Kings among them were originally temporary elected officials similar, in some ways, to Roman Dictators.
 


Xavim said:
The Drow are the best example of a chaotic society I've encountered yet.

The Drow have a psychotic society; there's a difference.


I wonder if the question isn't being posed incorrectly...


A basic assumption made by many in similar discussions across the Intarweb seems to be that if you have any rules, laws or traditions older than, oh, say, yesterday, your culture has to be Lawful.


Thus, you often see elves, for example, being considered "Lawful" in a lot of message-board jibba-jabba because they have borders, millenia-old laws & traditions and often act together for the common defense.


I think that if you live in a society where you can rise, by your own merit, hard work and/or cleverness, from the humblest of beginnings to become socially influential, wealthy and/or politically powerful, chances are that's a "Chaotic" culture. If, however, the nature of your ancestors determines your future (commoners only begetting commoners, aristocrats siring nobility, ranchers raising cow men and not sheep herders, et cetera) then it's likely that "Lawful" is the tag that your society will carry.
 

Remove ads

Top