Is it time for a low-magic setting?

Is it time for a low magic campaign setting?

  • No. If this was needed WOTC would have already published it

    Votes: 6 3.1%
  • No. This smacks of heresy. If you don't think 3E is perfect You should be playing some other game.

    Votes: 7 3.6%
  • No. FR and / or Eberron are already ideal settings. No reason to make anything new.

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • No. The market is already glutted. I don't want to buy any more books.

    Votes: 22 11.4%
  • No. it will create a dangerous split in the D&D community.

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • No. For some other reason.

    Votes: 32 16.6%
  • Maybe. Might be a nice idea but it probably wont sell.

    Votes: 36 18.7%
  • Maybe. It will work but only if they do XYZ...

    Votes: 13 6.7%
  • Yes, but....

    Votes: 21 10.9%
  • Yes. This is exactly what I've been wanting for a long time.

    Votes: 50 25.9%

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The difference between "old" and "new" school D&D seems to that in the old days you at least had the option of doing it low or high magic, while today, many people believe that due to issues of balance, the current version can ONLY be done high magic.

The mistake here is that you actually didn't have the option of low magic in 1 or 2e. As I said, if your party consists of core spell casters - either cleric or wizzie or both, then your campaign was NOT low magic. Each and every encounter would see the use of magic in such a campaign. Either the cleric is healing or the wizzie is blasting, or both.

Never mind that every published module in the "old school" was so chock a block with magic items to make the most Monty Haul of players drool.

I would suggest that you actually look at what is suggested in the DMG. If you follow the wealth guidelines, you'll see that stock 3e campaigns are actually very magic light. A 7th level character gets 19000 gp in equipment. Start doing the math and you see that you actually don't get all that much for that amount of cash.
 

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Hussar said:
The mistake here is that you actually didn't have the option of low magic in 1 or 2e. As I said, if your party consists of core spell casters - either cleric or wizzie or both, then your campaign was NOT low magic. Each and every encounter would see the use of magic in such a campaign. Either the cleric is healing or the wizzie is blasting, or both.

Never mind that every published module in the "old school" was so chock a block with magic items to make the most Monty Haul of players drool.

I would suggest that you actually look at what is suggested in the DMG. If you follow the wealth guidelines, you'll see that stock 3e campaigns are actually very magic light. A 7th level character gets 19000 gp in equipment. Start doing the math and you see that you actually don't get all that much for that amount of cash.

I'm going to disagree with you here. 19k is enough to get an Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, magic sword, magic bow, magic shield, magic armor, Cloak of Resistance and some potions. At minimal bonuses (+1 each), that's just over 11,000 gp (not counting the potions). That's quite a lot of change left over. For 6,000 more go, you can make a weapon elemental, too, or you could buy two +2 stat boosting items and still have over 2000 gp left over. I think we just disagree on what counts as "low magic".

One thing that annoyed me when I ran DnD was the lack of rules support for "poor" NPCs. I don't mean Lana, the village cook (3rd-level expert). I mean things like grimlock rangers (they're slaves of mind flayers - you're either giving them lots of magic items for some weird reason or you dump all that "gear value" on the basic mind flayer) and thri-kreen. You basically have to drop their CR and boost some stats to make them some kind of challenge.

I also blame magic items on making NPC fighters quite weak. (You can't give them the amount of gear that PCs get without hurting game balance in the long run ... which means they're weak.)
 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Psion
Are we? I must have missed that. Because if we are just talking about a "little change", you don't need to change the system at all IME; it's usually within the DM's cap. If you are looking for a new system, that doesn't seem consistent with your protestation here about "a little" change.



Please read or reread my posts through the thread then. I just brought up the idea of a "lower" magic setting from D20. People pointed out that if it was very low magic it might require some rules tweaking which I agree may be the case, (though I probably differ in how much). I stick to my original idea that any kind of lower magic setting would be welcome, I frankly think a 'medium' magic setting would be a good step in the right direction, even though I'd probably prefer a bit lower than that.

IMO, stock DnD IS medium magic. Compared to the heady days of going through something like Against the Giants and outfitting my 8th level paladin with a girdle of giant strength, gauntlets of ogre power and Hammer of Thunderbolts. I liked the fact that my 8th level paladin could then kill Ancient Huge Red Dragons in one round. :)

(Psi)SH - That's my point. Yes, the character has 8 or 9 magic items. However, they are ALL minor items that don't make a huge difference. Taken together, sure, they help, but, individually, they aren't a big deal. That character has +3 AC, +1 to hit and damage and +1 saves over a non-magic character. This is not a massive difference. Yes, it's an advantage, and, at higher level, that advantage blooms into a great chasm, I don't deny that, but, it's not a huge gap.

In other words, our putative magic decked fighter and a fighter with only masterwork items, wouldn't really be all that much different dealing with an opponent that lacks DR. Note, I do mention DR since that would make a big difference. Against a CR 7 opponent without DR, such as a Hill Giant, our magic laden fighter would not have a significantly easier time of things. Yes, he would have an easier time, but, would it be a level's worth of easier? Is our magic fighter equal to an 8th level fighter? 9th? I don't think so.

As far as the idea that the game is balanced on a dime, I can honestly say, hogwash. I'm running the World's Largest Dungeon. Have been for the last year. The characters are now 9th level. During the entire time, they could not buy any magic items, nor have they been able to make any. They have been entirely dependent on what they could find. Treasure wise, they're close, but low on the average wealth table.

Yet, they are still capable of facing encounters. CR works fine. I can lay on an EL 9 encounter and know that it's not going to kill them barring any major bad luck. I've run literally hundreds of combats over the past year with these players. Sure, sometimes PC's die, but, I've never had a TPK, nor have I had any major issues with the EL or CR.

This idea that CR is broken and that game balance is so fragile is a myth. Stock DnD handles a very wide range of game. You can do a lower magic game without any modification other than perhaps paying attention to what critters you throw at the party. Or not. By and large, even at 2/3rds character wealth, the party does fine with standard encounters.

Oh, and the myth of player entitlement has been debunked as well. Ask RC how many people think that players should be able to demand from their DM's. ;)
 

Felon said:
OK, I'm now officially convinced there ought to be a sticky thread entitled "Creating Polls 101". Or maybe "Polls for Dummies".

They don't call me "big dummy" for nothing.

And don't bait folks with cutesy little straw-men like "No. This smacks of heresy, blah blah perfect blah blah play some other game yadda yadda".

I put those options up because it's what I think a lot of people in here actually believe, and I notice several people chose the first two options in the poll.

If you don't like it, make your own poll. It was very informative to me.

DB
 

I said yes, but... because Midnight is out, and its the perfect low magic world.

If I ever wanted low magic, I'd go Midnight.

Do I think WOTC should do Low Magic? Hell no. I'd rather they picked up Planescape again. Thats what I'd rather. I LOVED Planescape.

Or maybe if they picked up SL for Nightfall ;)
 


Hussar said:
Compared to the heady days of going through something like Against the Giants and outfitting my 8th level paladin with a girdle of giant strength, gauntlets of ogre power and Hammer of Thunderbolts.

Just because you played that way does not mean thats how everyone did. Trying to base your estimate of the Magic saturation in 1ED&D on the amount of treasure in the TSR modules is laughable.

The point is, nobody was trying to tell anybody you couldn't play low magic in the old days. Lots of people played low medium or high magic however they wanted to. This thing where people are insisting that you can't play D&D lower magic is entirely new, and due to this balance obsession and the whole idea of encounters that players can always expect to beat etc. etc..

Oh, and the myth of player entitlement has been debunked as well.

ROFL!!!!!

Thats hilarious, thanks. I'm going to sig that.

BD
 



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