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Is it WotC’s responsibility to bring people to the hobby?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6003520" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>How many ways is this false?</p><p> </p><p>1: Rule Zero is in 3.X just as much as it is in any other edition. Although there is a slight difference. The difference is that the rules supplements in 3.X are marketed towards players rather than DMs. This is further disguised by the apparent ease of tinkering, especially with 4e. The AD&D rules out of the box need fiddling with (does anyone ever use the weapon vs armour type table?) whereas 3e and especially 4e can be run straight out of the box.</p><p> </p><p>2: Calling D&D 4e bloated is strictly false. The engine running 4e is smoother, smaller, and cleaner than the one running 2e. Compare the skill system for one - 2e NWPs and Rogue Skills vs 4e skills. This is concealed by the power structure - only the powers people choose impact the game, but the 4e presentation of them is intimidating. And 4e very definitely does have option bloat but this is a different issue from rules bloat.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>This is again strictly not true. The 4e power structure is AED<strong><u>U</u> -</strong> with the utility powers often but not always being used for combat; you might as well say that NWPs are about combat because they include blind fighting and fletching. Even if you have no non-combat utilities, a 4e character has more competence outside combat and more relationship to the rules than either a 3.X or AD&D character (a rogue with NWPs might come close in 2e). 3.X has one emergent significant problem outside combat - the nature of the skill point system makes you effectively incompetent. But other than for the rogue, AD&D is almost all combat and spell.</p><p> </p><p>4e actually has non-rogues who can have specialties that others can't match outside combat without casting spells.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>This is not only not true, it's also actively insulting. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Ironically if you want to replicate Appendix N, the game that works best is 4e. The Grey Mouser simply doesn't work in AD&D (he started out as a mage but doesn't cast spells) and the Gygaxo-Vancian casting on a daily cycle doesn't even work anything like Jack Vance - whereas the 4e AEDU fits quite a lot of fiction.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>In which case you are not comparing like with like. You don't get to write a 2e caster on an index card. You get to write a 2e caster on an index card <em>plus all the books actually containing the spells that you have to lug to the table</em>. 4e pre-essentials makes everyone about as complex as a third level caster, then the "flow chart" nature is equivalent to having the spells all printed out for you so you don't actually have to lug the PHB, the Spell Compendium, and whatever else around with you. Post essentials I can and have written fighters out on an index card. (And if a character can be written out on an index card IME it works better to do that than go with the unnecessarily bloated sheet).</p><p> </p><p>The problem isn't the character sheets - it's that they are badly presented, take up a vast amount of unnecessary space, and that you don't know how to read them.</p><p> </p><p>I hope some of the above helps correct a few misconceptions.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes. Mostly because WotC have brought out three books so far this year (unless Mezzobarranan's out - and that's fluff only). Paizo have routinely brought out three books in a month.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>No they didn't. They tried to keep 3.5 in print. Now it's possible that they considered 3.5 to be a better game than 4e but Paizo were explicitely motivated by the GSL and keeping a version close to WotC's old game in print. 3.5 was, of course made by WotC and the differences with Pathfinder are only some very minor house rules.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>And there was with 3.5. It had been falling apart for some time. But the release of 4e was botched in oh so many ways including throwing Orcus out, the Gleemax tragedy, the marketers who should be ashamed of themselves (especially Gamer Zero).</p><p> </p><p>Also Justin Alexander is a regular edition warrior - he writes interesting things on the way he plays, but outside that should probably be ignored - especially on the subject of 4e.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>This is a place where 4e blows anything D&D has produced since Lorraine Williams took over out of the water. It has combat scene structures, non-combat scene structures (the skill challenge, and yes the guidance could use work), and quest structures (as for an Adventure Path) complete with guidance on how much treasure to give and the sort of quests to write. (Gygaxian D&D had the dungeon of course). Yes, the dungeon structure is a tight one and the quest is a loose one - but it's there. And dealt with in great detail in the 4e DMGs.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6003520, member: 87792"] How many ways is this false? 1: Rule Zero is in 3.X just as much as it is in any other edition. Although there is a slight difference. The difference is that the rules supplements in 3.X are marketed towards players rather than DMs. This is further disguised by the apparent ease of tinkering, especially with 4e. The AD&D rules out of the box need fiddling with (does anyone ever use the weapon vs armour type table?) whereas 3e and especially 4e can be run straight out of the box. 2: Calling D&D 4e bloated is strictly false. The engine running 4e is smoother, smaller, and cleaner than the one running 2e. Compare the skill system for one - 2e NWPs and Rogue Skills vs 4e skills. This is concealed by the power structure - only the powers people choose impact the game, but the 4e presentation of them is intimidating. And 4e very definitely does have option bloat but this is a different issue from rules bloat. This is again strictly not true. The 4e power structure is AED[B][U]U[/U] -[/B] with the utility powers often but not always being used for combat; you might as well say that NWPs are about combat because they include blind fighting and fletching. Even if you have no non-combat utilities, a 4e character has more competence outside combat and more relationship to the rules than either a 3.X or AD&D character (a rogue with NWPs might come close in 2e). 3.X has one emergent significant problem outside combat - the nature of the skill point system makes you effectively incompetent. But other than for the rogue, AD&D is almost all combat and spell. 4e actually has non-rogues who can have specialties that others can't match outside combat without casting spells. This is not only not true, it's also actively insulting. Ironically if you want to replicate Appendix N, the game that works best is 4e. The Grey Mouser simply doesn't work in AD&D (he started out as a mage but doesn't cast spells) and the Gygaxo-Vancian casting on a daily cycle doesn't even work anything like Jack Vance - whereas the 4e AEDU fits quite a lot of fiction. In which case you are not comparing like with like. You don't get to write a 2e caster on an index card. You get to write a 2e caster on an index card [I]plus all the books actually containing the spells that you have to lug to the table[/I]. 4e pre-essentials makes everyone about as complex as a third level caster, then the "flow chart" nature is equivalent to having the spells all printed out for you so you don't actually have to lug the PHB, the Spell Compendium, and whatever else around with you. Post essentials I can and have written fighters out on an index card. (And if a character can be written out on an index card IME it works better to do that than go with the unnecessarily bloated sheet). The problem isn't the character sheets - it's that they are badly presented, take up a vast amount of unnecessary space, and that you don't know how to read them. I hope some of the above helps correct a few misconceptions. Yes. Mostly because WotC have brought out three books so far this year (unless Mezzobarranan's out - and that's fluff only). Paizo have routinely brought out three books in a month. No they didn't. They tried to keep 3.5 in print. Now it's possible that they considered 3.5 to be a better game than 4e but Paizo were explicitely motivated by the GSL and keeping a version close to WotC's old game in print. 3.5 was, of course made by WotC and the differences with Pathfinder are only some very minor house rules. And there was with 3.5. It had been falling apart for some time. But the release of 4e was botched in oh so many ways including throwing Orcus out, the Gleemax tragedy, the marketers who should be ashamed of themselves (especially Gamer Zero). Also Justin Alexander is a regular edition warrior - he writes interesting things on the way he plays, but outside that should probably be ignored - especially on the subject of 4e. This is a place where 4e blows anything D&D has produced since Lorraine Williams took over out of the water. It has combat scene structures, non-combat scene structures (the skill challenge, and yes the guidance could use work), and quest structures (as for an Adventure Path) complete with guidance on how much treasure to give and the sort of quests to write. (Gygaxian D&D had the dungeon of course). Yes, the dungeon structure is a tight one and the quest is a loose one - but it's there. And dealt with in great detail in the 4e DMGs. [/QUOTE]
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