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Message: <blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 6013835" data-attributes="member: 463">I'd have to agree. Plenty of WoTC people have said 4e failed. WoTC gave up on it less than halfway through its predicted lifespan. Paizo say Pathfinder replaced D&D as market leader in 2010-11, and WoTC don't disagree. Plus, and what surprises me more, all the survey polls I've seen indicate that a very large but fairly silent group of players never stopped playing 3e, they didn't convert to either 4e or Pathfinder though I suppose they may be buying some Pathfinder products.I'm not sure by what metric 4e could be considered not to be a commercial failure, whatever its strengths as a game. Per Dancey it was supposed to turn D&D from a $25-$30 million business into a $50 million business, leading into a $100 million business once Hasbro got the videogame rights back. Instead it turned D&D into something closer to a $15-$20 million* business, judging by what I've seen of DDi numbers and sales figures.*Probably lower this year, given the lack of new product. I remember looking over all the 2011 data I could get.</blockquote>