Is Magic a Setting Element or a Plot Device

[Janx]

I smell differing assumptions are impacting this discusssion.

tons of elves died to kill Sauron. What happened to their weapons 2500 years ago?

A plausible reason was given that justifies why the world isn't crawling with them.

Frodo's mithril shirt is/isn't a plot point. If he wasn't wearing it, the author would not have stabbed him in the shirt to make us worry and then be reminded of this artifact. Plot point? meh. It doesn't change the point that Frodo carried the One Ring to the Mt Doom.

The One Ring was a plot-point magic item. You HAD to have it to set the goal of go here, drop this off.

The rest of it, you can live in a world where you question why the author did it his way and not your way, or you can live in a world where you accept a logical explanation for why things are the way they are.

The 3rd state, that the author made a mistake or is an idiot is also possible, but hopefully in good fiction, happens rarely.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Maybe I'm getting this all confused in my mind with other stories, but isn't part of the idea behind Frodo's mithril shirt is that:

1. Mithril is very rare now, due to Moria being inaccessible. Presumably, the mithril that people have from earlier they are sitting on--in the case of dragons, lying on.

2. The coat that Bilbo hands down to Frodo is "hobbit size" because it was a young dwarf princes' armor. So a hobbit size mithril coat is unique because dwarves woudn't have made many such.

 

[Pentius]

Not to diss the movies, which I thought were excellent, but I'm not going to try to defend their internal consistency. Movies generally have a much lower standard in that regard.

True, I was more pointing out that anyone thinking it was a troll has a basis for doing so, and isn't just misremembering.

Still, the real disconnect with the magic items in LotR, to me, is that the Fellowship consists of an elven prince, a highborn dwarf, a lost king, the prince(basically) of Gondor, an angel/wizard, and 4 nobodies from the backwater. Frodo, chief of the nobodies, got no less than three exceptionally valuable artifacts as hand-me-downs. Everyone else got maybe one. And of those hand-me-downs, Bilbo got one as a gift, and found the other two in random dark holes. If there was any mithril in Gondor, be it helmets, a bracelet, a codpiece, it should have gone with Boromir. But Bilbo was able to better arm Frodo than an established kingdom was able to arm its next-in-line for a vitally important mission. Heck, Gandalf himself, a wizard and fellow adventurer, got less loot than Bilbo did in one brief campaign! And Gandalf was in that campaign, too!

I have to question whether is would actually be of lower cost, since you have to have either a truly massive blast furnace to create the wall in or have some means to cut the wall into slabs. If it is deceint quality iron to begin with that isn't trivial. With ore, you have it in easy to carry chunks already. It wouldn't be something you would be able to do on your own.

But, that isn't the discussion at hand, really.

Welcome to Tangent Hour. I'm your host, Pentius.

Anyway. I think it would be lower cost, because you could get some adamantine cutters and go to town. The shears are a costly initial investment(3,000gp if you price them as a weapon), but you have to compare that to the cost of opening a mine, which depending on location, can entail starting your own small village. Once the investment is made, though, you just need to pay one or two guys to cut the iron and put it on a cart. The lower cost of wages will eventually pay off the higher investment.

Breakdown(I am not a Math Guy, feel free to check this for glaring inaccuracies):
-According to the SRD, Wall of Iron requires an 11th level caster(spell level 6), and for said caster, yields 11 squares of wall(1/caster level), 2 inches thick(1/4 caster levels). This can also be 22 squares at 1 inch thick, at caster's preference.

-2 inches thick by 5 feet(1 square) tall and 5 feet(1 square) wide makes (1/6)x5x5=4.166666666666667 cubic feet per square of wall.

-Multiplied by 11 squares of wall is 45.83~ cubic feet of iron per casting.

-Googling how much that would weigh produced different results, but the low end was 450 pounds per cubic foot, so I'll use that.

-According to the SRD, each pound of iron is worth 1sp. That means 10 pounds would be worth 1 gp, and thus each cubic foot would be worth 45gp.

-45.83~ x 45gp = 2062.5gp worth of iron produced with each casting.

-50gp for the material component of the spell makes 2012.5gp.

You could pay your workers pretty good wages(for commoners), pay 20% in taxes or what have you, and still come out looking pretty good.

 

[Baron Opal]

Still, the real disconnect with the magic items in LotR, to me, is that the Fellowship consists of an elven prince, a highborn dwarf, a lost king, the prince(basically) of Gondor, an angel/wizard, and 4 nobodies from the backwater... If there was any mithril in Gondor, be it helmets, a bracelet, a codpiece, it should have gone with Boromir.

Yeah, that bugged me too, back in the day. Gimli came from the Lonely Mountain. Why in the world didn't Dain Ironfoot give him one of the amazing armaments that ... Dwalin? complained they couldn't figure out how to make anymore? I'm right there with you on the astonishing lack of Numenorian- wrought armaments that Boromir wasn't carrying. Some hobbits trip over some magic swords in a barrow, and Boromir, heir to the strongest human domain, has ... a horn.

Welcome to Tangent Hour. I'm your host, Pentius.

Yay! Which door, which door....

Anyway. I think it would be lower cost, because you could get some adamantine cutters and go to town. The shears are a costly initial investment(3,000gp if you price them as a weapon), but you have to compare that to the cost of opening a mine, which depending on location, can entail starting your own small village...

Breakdown(I am not a Math Guy, feel free to check this for glaring inaccuracies)..

Well, that's the sticking point for me. Part of my assumption is that there would not be an adamantine cutting tool so easily available. In fact, if I did have a town run by a magician whose income was based on the iron trade the theft of the secret shearing bar would be a good adventure seed. I can't imagine someone not trying to steal the sucker to make a weapon or magic item out of it. I mean, really. A future vorpal sword is just lying there, begging to be liberated for more glorious deeds.

I'll concede the math. If you have the wherewithall to construct the smelter and can process the iron, I can see how you would turn a profit over a mine. I imagine a mine would be very cheap, however you wouldn't be able to produce the volume of processed metal that you could with the above set-up.

 

[Hussar]

I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm curious on this point... in your opinion, can something be rare in a book (movie, comic, whatever), and not be a plot point?

For example, can a nearly unbreakable mithril-like substance just be super rare in a book (Generic Fantasy Book) while remaining a piece of the setting? Or does its rarity therefore make it a plot point, in your mind?

Not necessarily, but, as you point out later, it's probably a good indication. There are very, very few unique things in the universe. If something is truly unique, perhaps it's the prototype for example, then fine, but, something like a sword that glows when orcs are around isn't one of those things.

Personally, I see plot devices not based on rarity, but on whether or not they exist to move the plot in some way. You can have a one-of-a-kind starmetal sword that is sharper and stronger than normal, but if it never cuts That Which Cannot Be Cut or withstands That Which Can Shatter Any Weapon, I don't think it's a plot device.

To that end, I'd personally categorize rare items as a setting issue. I do agree that rare items are used more prominently as plot devices than common items, but I'm not sure if it's more often. If you read some Conan books, the guy is skilled like no one else in combat. He's just the biggest, baddest dude around. However, he has horrible in-combat luck: he tends to trip on cloaks, slip and fall, etc. from time to time. This is usually to knock him out, have an enemy pounce on him only for an ally to save him, etc. This is obviously plot, but it's entirely mundane.

I don't think rarity damns something to be a plot device (not saying you think that; I'm just giving my thoughts on it). To that end, I'd definitely characterize limited magic, fantastical creatures, or unique objects as a setting issue. I wouldn't characterize it as plot at all, since many, many mundane things are used as plot devices.

Well, of course. Mundane things are used as plot devices all the time. But, mundane things are also typically used as setting elements as well. The fact that there is a cloak to trip on, and that it's not some unique thing that only one person can ever possible wear, makes it a setting element by and large.

Tripping on a chair does not make all chairs plot devices. That specific chair is being used as one, fair enough, but, chairs in the story, by and large, aren't.

Take your pick of protagonists: James Bond, Batman, Zorro, Rand al'Thor, whoever. They're all loaded up with moving the plot forward. It's not a genre thing, in my opinion. It's a plot thing. I don't think it's really all that related to magic in particular.

Mind you, I do understand where you're coming from. If something new and revolutionary's been used, I can understand why you'd rather the world take notice of it. I don't mind that point of view at all (and generally agree with it). I just don't see how this necessarily ties to magic (and I know you mentioned it's not genre-specific, and that Star Trek does this as well). Maybe you don't mean it that way, but I'm working off of the posts from you recently, the original post, and thread title.

Anyways, sorry for rambling on. There's my view on it, for whatever it's worth. As always, play what you like

Yeah, I can get on board with this. I think it's my own observer bias getting in the way. I tend not to read a lot of SF like Star Trek where technology is so often used as plot devices and the fantasy that I've read, it happens a lot.

BTW, I know I used the term "magic" and contrasted it with technology and perhaps I shouldn't. It's just that IME, magic in fantasy tends to be used as a plot device more often than technology in SF. Not that there aren't many exceptions. There most certainly are.

 

[Hussar]

---I like tangents---

On a note about wall of iron: A 9th level caster would make a wall 2 inches thick - 1 inch thick if you double the area. Cutting through one inch of iron isn't exactly that difficult. You can break it up fairly easily with a large enough hammer.

My option would be to create the wall on the ground, over top of a series of break points. Station very large steel cutters above the break points on pulleys. Drop the cutters from a fair height and voila, you have a nice piece of workable iron.

That's infinitely cheaper than trying to dig it out of the ground, purify it, smelt it down, and then make it into ingots. Plus, there's also the question of how pure the wall of iron is compared to the ore you dig out of the ground.

----

To Hussar, I would like to question the rarity / plot point issue as well. What is the tipping point in your mind?

In my mind, there really isn't one. It's a spectrum. At one end, we have something like the One Ring, which I think we'll all agree is a plot point. At the other end we have chairs which might be used as a plot point, but are mostly used for setting.

My point about rarity is, again, if something is available to be utilized, why isn't it? If something can be utilized, and it's not, then that's a pretty good sign that it's a plot device. We have a glowy sword on Frodo so that he can foreshadow conflict quite nicely. We have super dooper armor on Frodo so that he can take punishment and keep on going.

And again, it's not inconsistent. Using something for a plot device doesn't invalidate it. It just makes it not to my taste. Why doesn't Boromir have mithril armor? If the guards in Gondor have mithril helmets, you'd think he'd requisition one before setting out. Legolas has a knife, but, not one that glows in the presence of orcs. As far as we know it's just a knife. Gimli carries nothing despite being a dwarven noble.

Why not? Because the magic in LotR is a plot device not a setting element. It's part of the Myth, not the Mundane to use KM's terminology and I think that's particularly apt.

 

[S'mon]

The whole wall of iron debate arises from a brainfart where the 3e designers changed the wall of iron duration (in 1e-2e) from 'permanent' to 'instant' - ie from being a magical effect to creating real iron. I just kept it as 'permanent' and avoided this whole issue.

 

[Pentius]

Yeah, that bugged me too, back in the day. Gimli came from the Lonely Mountain. Why in the world didn't Dain Ironfoot give him one of the amazing armaments that ... Dwalin? complained they couldn't figure out how to make anymore? I'm right there with you on the astonishing lack of Numenorian- wrought armaments that Boromir wasn't carrying. Some hobbits trip over some magic swords in a barrow, and Boromir, heir to the strongest human domain, has ... a horn.

Exactly. It's almost as if an aspiring adventurer should just wander in a random direction until the treasure falls into his lap.

Well, that's the sticking point for me. Part of my assumption is that there would not be an adamantine cutting tool so easily available. In fact, if I did have a town run by a magician whose income was based on the iron trade the theft of the secret shearing bar would be a good adventure seed. I can't imagine someone not trying to steal the sucker to make a weapon or magic item out of it. I mean, really. A future vorpal sword is just lying there, begging to be liberated for more glorious deeds.

I'll concede the math. If you have the wherewithall to construct the smelter and can process the iron, I can see how you would turn a profit over a mine. I imagine a mine would be very cheap, however you wouldn't be able to produce the volume of processed metal that you could with the above set-up.

I'm not assuming the cutting device is easily attainable either, just that it is attainable. There don't have to be adamantine cutters at every corner store, there just has to be one smith willing to take commissions. 3,000gp was the price for a weapon, but if you had to double or even triple that to get adamantine cutters commissioned, you'd make the money back fairly quick. Heck, I could see a nation naturally scarce in iron being willing to lend you the money, or maybe even foot the bill themselves, in exchange for exclusive trading rights at a pre-determined cost.

 

[Hussar]

The whole wall of iron debate arises from a brainfart where the 3e designers changed the wall of iron duration (in 1e-2e) from 'permanent' to 'instant' - ie from being a magical effect to creating real iron. I just kept it as 'permanent' and avoided this whole issue.

S'mon - you're missing the point though. It's not that this single spell is the issue. It's this spell coupled with all the other stuff that's the issue.

Note, that permanent durations were not dispellable in 2e IIRC. Forex, Cure spells had a duration of permanent. Instant durations was a 3e term. Again IIRC.

Let me try another example that might illuminate things a bit better.

Compare Star Trek and Stargate (either SG1 or Atlantis (I never saw the other one)). In the STTOS episode City on the Edge of Forever, the Enterprise discovers a gate that allows you to travel to any point in the universe at any time. It's a great episode and probably one of the best old Trek episodes ever.

But, despite the Federation starship finding a gate that allows instantaneous travel to any point in the universe and any time as well, we never see the Gate again in any Star Trek series.

IOW, it's a total plot point. It makes zero impact on the setting. Star Trek does this all the time.

Compare Stargate. They find a Stargate and the first thing they do is start using it to explore. In both series', every time they find a cool new toy, they pick it up and start using it. They fly fighters designed by aliens and a couple of space battle cruisers as well. In Atlantis, they actually make a point of ganking everyone's tech as often as they can in the attempt to stop the big bad guys.

IOW, the technology, while of course being part of the plot, is also part of the setting. If they find something nifty in Episode X, you can probably guess that you'll see it being used in later episodes.

That's the difference that I see between the Fantastic as plot point or setting element. Or, to use KM's better terminology, Mundane vs Myth.

 

[S'mon]

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] - sure, I understand. And I think pre-4e D&D is pretty bad at not addressing the implications of its magic. 3e is far worse than prior eds though, magic being much cheaper, more common, and often more powerful.