D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[Snarf Zagyg]

There's no point in saying what "a dragon" should be like or do in D&D because there's no singular definition of a dragon in D&D --

I would go so far as to say that the D&D Dragon is sui generis- it is its own thing, now, removed from both mythology and folklore, and it doesn't really resemble anything so much as it does itself.

 

[Reynard]

I would go so far as to say that the D&D Dragon is sui generis- it is its own thing, now, removed from both mythology and folklore, and it doesn't really resemble anything so much as it does itself.

My point is that there is no "the Dragon" in D&D. Even the core books have a half dozen when you consider wyverns, dragon turtles and all the other analogs for traditional mythological creatures that were dragons.

But even the core chromatics and metallics aren't "the dragon" in D&D since the game tells you from the get go to personalize them.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

My point is that there is no "the Dragon" in D&D. Even the core books have a half dozen when you consider wyverns, dragon turtles and all the other analogs for traditional mythological creatures that were dragons.

But even the core chromatics and metallics aren't "the dragon" in D&D since the game tells you from the get go to personalize them.

But I would go farther; when people talk about the other dragons, even the supposedly most similar one (Smaug)- that isn't a D&D Dragon.

From the good/evil chromatic/metallic to everything else, the D&D Dragon has always been its own, weird thing. Even taking a prototypical, Red Ancient Dragon that loves treasure and flattery (the most Smaug-like of all Dragons), by the point of 2e, if not earlier, the D&D Dragon was easily something far devolved from the source material that it no longer made much sense to think of referents to dragons outside of the D&D context.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, elephants are thought to be about as smart as a person (just differently smart, so no pachyderm projectile weapons). An average intelligence (or smarter dragon) doesn't have to be "demi-human" kind of smart. It can still be "dragon smart" and not necessarily recognizable as an "intelligent creature" from the self centered perspective of two-legs.

This is one of my favorite elephant stories.

Your food or my tusks! India elephant robs motorists

An elephant in eastern India has sparked complaints from motorists who accuse it of blocking traffic and refusing to allow vehicles to pass unless drivers give it food, a newspaper reported on Monday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Krachek]

After all my years of gaming I can say that the Alpha predator is the current Pc’s party.

 

[Maxperson]

Um, with respect, dinosaurs went out 65 million years ago. Homo erectus became a thing about 2 million years ago. There's a 60+ million year gap, such that there's no real connection between those events.

But, Noah's Ark included the dinosaurs!

Noah's Ark, Complete With Dinosaurs, Opens In Kentucky

Visitors will be able to meet dinosaurs up close at a life-size replica of Noah's ark in Kentucky.

www.forbes.com

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Neil Gaiman is as wrong as you want him to be. The way I see it, not all dragons are Dragons, and "defeat" doesn't always mean "kill."

• That wyvern on the east side of the moor, that's been poaching cattle and terrorizing the countryside? Sure it can be slain. Get a posse together and go hunting!
• That fire-breathing dragon that just moved in to the mountaintop next door, the one that kidnapped the princess and started bankrupting the kingdom with extortion? Sure, you can slay it...but you're gonna need a knight or two in shining armor, possibly wielding a magical McGuffin.
• Tiamat, the 5-headed Draconic Goddess, the Progenitor of Hell? She's not going to be slain by a mere mortal. No, the best you can hope for is to somehow lock her away with a powerful binding spell, until her cult of followers somehow manage to unleash her upon the world once more.

OTOH, what’s the point of becoming epic Demi-god heroes if you can’t break that last rule?


IMO, the only reason to even play those levels is to have the status quo of the setting be changed in one or more dramatic ways by the end of the campaign. The pantheon looks different, one or more great kingdom is broken and a new kingdom is taking its place, there is no more Dark Lord, the gods aren’t missing anymore, The Dragon is dead and a free city state stands as a beacon of hope in the dying world of Athas, the Devil himself has been redeemed and become The Martyr who watches over those who must atone, and yeah, maybe Tiamat (or Gruumsh, or whoever) is dead.

Are there any evil goddesses in the main D&D cosmology that haven’t been made into some kind of fiend? I guess Shar, but like...Llolth and Tiamat get to live in fiend places instead of their own divine realms while Gruumsh and Bane get their own domains? Why?

 

[Voadam]

Just because the dragon isn't speaking doesn't mean it's a dumb beast. I assume that a beast doesn't normally surrender, right? (Moldvay B33). Have a great love of treasure? (Same). Capture men? (Same). And, even if they don't speak, "pause and listen to flattery[.]" (Same).

This is an argument that is far more stupid than any dragon. They are intelligent, vain creatures that accumulate treasure and take captives, among other things.

Even in Moldvay.

Right not a dumb beast. An intelligent one, as I said before.

As for beasts surrendering and being subdued, isn't that similar to the concept of breaking a horse? In any case Moldvay explicitly says a dragon is just like any other intelligent animal or monster in doing so.

A dragon, like any other intelligent animal or monster, may be subdued because it realizes that its attackers, could have killed it if they had been striking to kill. It therefore surrenders, admitting that the opponents have won the battle but saving its own life.

As for capturing

Chaotic dragons might capture men, but will usually kill and eat them immediately.

Some animals do capture some prey alive and bring them home for their kids to practice on.

So if you wanted dragons that are closer to later edition drakes than Smaug, D&D's got you covered.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Right not a dumb beast. An intelligent one, as I said before.

As for beasts surrendering and being subdued, isn't that similar to the concept of breaking a horse? In any case Moldvay explicitly says a dragon is just like any other intelligent animal or monster in doing so.



As for capturing



Some animals do capture some prey alive and bring them home for their kids to practice on.

So if you wanted dragons that are closer to later edition drakes than Smaug, D&D's got you covered.

Surprising! I didn’t realize it took so many words to spell sophistry.

 

[Voadam]

My point is that there is no "the Dragon" in D&D.

Boris disagrees