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<blockquote data-quote="xechnao" data-source="post: 4347561" data-attributes="member: 58105">No. I am saying that focusing optimization on teamwork might not provide fun eventually to the group's players -fun in a cooperative, competitive or mixed way (or whatever: it is you that comes with these MMORPG situations here (PvP, PvE) that I do not think they apply to the nature of tabletop rpgs and their goals as you might think they do -they do not apply at least for my tastes, from my knowledge and experience with tabletops.Groups can't have fun: they are not logic organisms. You ask persons if they have fun. There is not such a creature called &quot;group&quot; that you can ask it if it has fun.I am not saying that one person's fun is not more important than five people's fun. Each one's is and must be equally important for the game's design goals. I am saying that teamwork focused design might fail to do this for everybody in a tabletop rpg as it might fail to challenge each one of the group.These roles are not enough fun for my tastes in the long run. I know I want something more challenging and thus dynamic regarding my relations with others.I agree 100% that these games are not fun for me. What I am saying is that it is more complicated than a focus on the one or the other. This is why I tell you I do not think you have paid attention to what I am talking about.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="xechnao, post: 4347561, member: 58105"] No. I am saying that focusing optimization on teamwork might not provide fun eventually to the group's players -fun in a cooperative, competitive or mixed way (or whatever: it is you that comes with these MMORPG situations here (PvP, PvE) that I do not think they apply to the nature of tabletop rpgs and their goals as you might think they do -they do not apply at least for my tastes, from my knowledge and experience with tabletops. Groups can't have fun: they are not logic organisms. You ask persons if they have fun. There is not such a creature called "group" that you can ask it if it has fun. I am not saying that one person's fun is not more important than five people's fun. Each one's is and must be equally important for the game's design goals. I am saying that teamwork focused design might fail to do this for everybody in a tabletop rpg as it might fail to challenge each one of the group. These roles are not enough fun for my tastes in the long run. I know I want something more challenging and thus dynamic regarding my relations with others. I agree 100% that these games are not fun for me. What I am saying is that it is more complicated than a focus on the one or the other. This is why I tell you I do not think you have paid attention to what I am talking about. [/QUOTE]

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