Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?

I think they just messed up their assumptions. Here we are 10 years later, everyone has smart phones and most people still use books.

I suspect books are just part of the D&D experience for most people. It's about selling emotions and feelings, hell vinyl still sells despite being obsolete for 30+ years.

Vinyl is superior for DJ mix table purposes, and always will be by the nature of that medium. And, yeah, I think people are looking for that analog feel with TTRPGs: a TTRPG with crunchy combat will never be able to keep up with Fire Emblem or X-Com.
 

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I think they just messed up their assumptions. Here we are 10 years later, everyone has smart phones and most people still use books.

I suspect books are just part of the D&D experience for most people.
Also keeping in mind that WotC was hoping for an online toolset along the lines of the successful DnDBeyond for 4e, but that this never materialized because of a murder-suicide by their contract. There are so basically so many online programs (e.g., Roll20, DnDBeyond, etc.) that are all about selling you books and materials that you already own. So I am not entirely sure if their assumptions were messed up, beyond their choice of web developers. This was one of the unfortunate setbacks that unfairly did hurt the reception of 4e, regardless of one's attitudes towards the rules.
 

All TTRPGs are still in the "Stone age," many of the first people to ever play an RPG are still playing.
I believe I implied that they all are - the later Neolithic. Working on agriculture, haven't gotten bronze right?
If we want to use technological analogies, the actual mechanics are less important than the design structure: in which case WotC and Paizo are currently ahead of the pack due to their access to big data pools for what does and doesn't work for their player base.
So, they've skipped from flaking scrapers off flint cores to conspicuous consumption? I'm sorry, I don't think my metaphor can take that. ;) Seriously, though, even a paleolithic tool culture /did/ include design (intent, pre-visualiztion).

New players might not be able to make the comparisons, but they may find a particular thing a turn-off.
Nod, and, IMX (and I've introduced tons of people to D&D over 39 years), they have, yes, and not always the same thing, it varies with player. For instance, Vancian magic lost of no end of players back in the day, and led to myriad alternate 'mana' systems, because it was so unintuitive and counter-genre. But, in the intervening decades, D&D Vancian has bled through video games and D&D-themed and D&D-inspired fiction and into the mainstream consciousness... and D&D has softened Vancian, a lot, with 'prep' replacing 'memorization,' now, with 5e, Spontaneous Casting for all. (And, yes, that's an example of a change, and one that's well-received by new players, all unknowing that in the past they've had to've picked not only which spells they wanted to cast that days, but how many times they were going to be able to cast each of them.)

But, very often, especially with older eds of D&D, new players show up once, voice no particular complaint even seem interested & to have a good time, and are then never seen again. Just "see'n what all the fuss is about" I guess. At my FLGS, we actually /do/ see more turnover and more one-time players, now, under AL then we did with Encounters, but we also see /so many more new players/ (and returning players, the first couple years of 5e) that we've easily retained just as many past that critical-seeming first session.


(such as grid-intensive miniature combat)
I've never seen a new-to-RPGs payer turned off by the use of a grid - returning players, OTOH... nope, also not really an issue. Every table at our FLGs still uses a battlemat. (OK, every /D&D/ table, the one non-D&D table, playing Rolemaster, of all things, didn't.)

I remember when, on the old 3e WotC boards, pre-Gleemax, grognards started grousing about 'grid dependence' like they didn't play at sandtables back in the day. And since then it's taken on a bizarre life of it's own.

I mean, TotM is great, but it is, IMHO/X, an 'advanced' technique - you don't want to give new & casual players the added overhead of trying to visualize range/area/positioning in a turn-based game, so TotM with them turns into the DM describing, re-describing, and re-re-describing the same, slightly different scene, each and every turn. A play surface (grid or plain) and some sort of figures really helps new players.

4e today would be reacted to quite differently I think, simply because you have such a large audience of VTT players that didn't exist in 2008.
You'd just see "grid dependence" replaced with "VTT dependence," and more emphasis on "it's an MMO" over "it's a tactical boardgame." That's the thing about stalking horses, you can use whatever color horse is available.

Enough people took the things they disliked personally enough to edition war over them. A nice/efficient on-line venue to play the game wouldn't've in any way mollified them, if anything, it'd've made them more determined.

I doubt it. That was the least of my problems with the game. It just wasn't a very good game for suspending reality.
'Suspending reality' or "immersion" is a very personal experience. For me, I get there more easily if I'm /less/ comfortable/familiar with the system, it gives me a sense of feeling out and exploring like the character is. I get the sense I'm an outlier, it seems most folks achieve immersion more readily when they're fully conversant with the system - it becomes second-nature, and becomes the 'nature' (natural laws) of the imagined setting. ::shrug:: Either way, if you hate* the system, it's not going to deliver that sort of experience, you'll constantly be reacting to the system, itself, instead of the fiction its modeling.











*or, conversely, if you're really into the system for it's own sake.
 

I believe I implied that they all are - the later Neolithic. Working on agriculture, haven't gotten bronze right? So, they've skipped from flaking scrapers off flint cores to conspicuous consumption? I'm sorry, I don't think my metaphor can take that. ;) Seriously, though, even a paleolithic tool culture /did/ include design (intent, pre-visualiztion).

Nod, and, IMX (and I've introduced tons of people to D&D over 39 years), they have, yes, and not always the same thing, it varies with player. For instance, Vancian magic lost of no end of players back in the day, and led to myriad alternate 'mana' systems, because it was so unintuitive and counter-genre. But, in the intervening decades, D&D Vancian has bled through video games and D&D-themed and D&D-inspired fiction and into the mainstream consciousness... and D&D has softened Vancian, a lot, with 'prep' replacing 'memorization,' now, with 5e, Spontaneous Casting for all. (And, yes, that's an example of a change, and one that's well-received by new players, all unknowing that in the past they've had to've picked not only which spells they wanted to cast that days, but how many times they were going to be able to cast each of them.)

But, very often, especially with older eds of D&D, new players show up once, voice no particular complaint even seem interested & to have a good time, and are then never seen again. Just "see'n what all the fuss is about" I guess. At my FLGS, we actually /do/ see more turnover and more one-time players, now, under AL then we did with Encounters, but we also see /so many more new players/ (and returning players, the first couple years of 5e) that we've easily retained just as many past that critical-seeming first session.



I've never seen a new-to-RPGs payer turned off by the use of a grid - returning players, OTOH... nope, also not really an issue. Every table at our FLGs still uses a battlemat. (OK, every /D&D/ table, the one non-D&D table, playing Rolemaster, of all things, didn't.)

I remember when, on the old 3e WotC boards, pre-Gleemax, grognards started grousing about 'grid dependence' like they didn't play at sandtables back in the day. And since then it's taken on a bizarre life of it's own.

I mean, TotM is great, but it is, IMHO/X, an 'advanced' technique - you don't want to give new & casual players the added overhead of trying to visualize range/area/positioning in a turn-based game, so TotM with them turns into the DM describing, re-describing, and re-re-describing the same, slightly different scene, each and every turn. A play surface (grid or plain) and some sort of figures really helps new players.

You'd just see "grid dependence" replaced with "VTT dependence," and more emphasis on "it's an MMO" over "it's a tactical boardgame." That's the thing about stalking horses, you can use whatever color horse is available.

Enough people took the things they disliked personally enough to edition war over them. A nice/efficient on-line venue to play the game wouldn't've in any way mollified them, if anything, it'd've made them more determined.

'Suspending reality' or "immersion" is a very personal experience. For me, I get there more easily if I'm /less/ comfortable/familiar with the system, it gives me a sense of feeling out and exploring like the character is. I get the sense I'm an outlier, it seems most folks achieve immersion more readily when they're fully conversant with the system - it becomes second-nature, and becomes the 'nature' (natural laws) of the imagined setting. ::shrug:: Either way, if you hate* the system, it's not going to deliver that sort of experience, you'll constantly be reacting to the system, itself, instead of the fiction its modeling.











*or, conversely, if you're really into the system for it's own sake.

I'm not too sure how representative game store play is: I've played the game for over 15 years, and never played in a store or convention, and that's true of most of the players I know (I do shop at the local stores, however, and I'd lay odds that the one you run in is one of those, actually).

When I started playing in earnest in College, we only ever did theatre if the mind, busting out minis for one single large fight in years of play. And that was 3.X, albeit with a healthy dose of Handwavium to keep things running (in practice similar to what 5E assumes as basic).
 

I'm a big fan of theater of the mind myself, but I find it difficult to employ in 5e. All ranges and area of effects specified in feet make me constantly feel like I'm getting it wrong. Something like zones or range bands from other games make it a lot easier to deal with.
 

I'm a big fan of theater of the mind myself, but I find it difficult to employ in 5e. All ranges and area of effects specified in feet make me constantly feel like I'm getting it wrong. Something like zones or range bands from other games make it a lot easier to deal with.

Those sort of systems can work, but feet are fairly intuitive.
 


I'm not too sure how representative game store play is: I've played the game for over 15 years, and never played in a store or convention, and that's true of most of the players I know.
So you've got a smaller sample size. ;) But, yes, you do get a lot more new & casual gamers in-store than at conventions, for instance, and stable groups are quite another story.

In my area the last play-in-store what we'd now call an FLGS, The Game Table, closed in, I think '87, yeah, that sounds right. In that one there was D&D, Champions, & Traveler being played regularly (among many other things irregularly - and wargames were still significant, M&M, SFB &c - I didn't pay that much attention, but M&M's hard to miss, they take up a lot of space), and only Traveler was run TotM, D&D was painted minis on a grid, Champions! cardboard heroes (standies, I think we'd call 'me now) on a hex battlemat.
It started coming back in the oughts, but just outside my stomping grounds - I worked conventions with a club that was centered round a shop like that in Oakland (cheaper rent, I guess), for instance, but nothing to speak of in the South Bay. By the time I joined Encounters, 2010, there were three FLGSs in the area - two running Encounters, one Warhammer & PF(S? I think it was a thing by then?). One of those closed, but Isle split off from Illusive in early 2014 because gaming had outgrown the space (we'd have one or two tables of Encounters overflow outside) in what was originally a comics shop.

When I started playing in earnest in College, we only ever did theatre if the mind, busting out minis for one single large fight in years of play. And that was 3.X, albeit with a healthy dose of Handwavium to keep things running (in practice similar to what 5E assumes as basic).
In college the groups I was in also tended towards TotM, for one compelling reason: no space. I even ran Champions! without a battlemat.


(I do shop at the local stores, however, and I'd lay odds that the one you run in is one of those, actually).
Isle of Gamers, Santa Clara! I'm actually back to gaming more or less regularly (not quite every week) after a pretty terrible year, health-wise.
 
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