Pathfinder 1E Is Pathfinder going to slow down?

[Thotas]

(Full disclosure: I am a Paizo employee.)

1) If Paizo only uses "core books and the adventure" for its APs, then (a) that's a lot of really cool classes, spells, magic items, and monsters from other sources that are off-limits for use in an adventure, and (b) people who own those other sources will feel ripped off that all the cool stuff in the other books they bought aren't being used/supported.

2) If Paizo reprints information from other books (such as a spell, monster, or magic item), that's less new adventure content you're getting with your adventure. For example, the hippopotamus appears in Bestiary 2. If an AP has an encounter with a hippo, and Paizo includes the hippo's stat block in the adventure, that's half a page spent on a hippo stat block—half a page that could have been spent giving more background on the adventure, describing the motivations of a villain, or statting out a new magic item found in the AP.

3) As others have pointed out, the rules from Paizo's core books are online for free at Paizo's PRD. And all other OGL rules content appears on fan-created websites. So if you don't have Bestiary 2, or Mythic Monsters Revisited, or whatever, you still have easy (and legal) access to that supplementary content. Which means Paizo can include a three-line pointer to that content and get on with the new material for the AP.

Food for thought.

That's been an issue in the process of putting out adventures since the beginnings of the hobby -- and one of the reasons that I'm a Paizo fan is that I think you guys have hit the perfect balance for all the reasons you've just explained. Don't change a thing about those policies and procedures.

 

[Argyle King]

I'm not sure if this adds anything to the conversation, but an interesting thought came to mind while reading the thread.


Most of the PF items I've purchased haven't been used to run PF. I've picked up some of the adventures, but did not use them with PF rules. I'm also quite fond of PF's style for goblins, so I've picked up some of the PF minis for them. I do own the core Pathfinder book because the group I game with did briefly play, but it didn't last.

 

[Gundark]

I've purchased Pathfinder peripherals with the intent to use them with 4e or other games. I've purchased APs and have seriously considered their "pawn sets". I've never (nor would I) run Pathfinder

 

[delericho]

I understand WHY companies like Paizo do it, but I absolutely hate the "see page X in Y book" references.

One thing that would be extremely useful (although, of course, would require some considerable work) would be if someone could compile all those references from the SRD into a single document - that way, you could grab that one PDF and have everything you need all in one place.

(And the thing it would be most useful for is probably not the "see page X in Y book" references, so much as those references that are not specifically called out, such as when an NPC has a non-core feat listed in her stat-block without further reference. There's a real good chance I won't notice that until I'm actually running the adventure, and by then it's just too late.)

 

[delericho]

I'm not actually convinced we'll see a Pathfinder 2nd Edition as such:

Firstly, electronic publishing is in the process of killing print and taking its stuff. Sooner or later, there's likely to come a point where it makes sense to switch off the printers and go electronic-only.

However, as soon as you do go electronic-only, 'books' become pretty much the least efficient way to present new mechanics. A properly linked electronic enecylopedia is a much more efficient way of organising things (and especially if you make sure to keep each 'thing', be it a feat, spell, magic item, or whatever, small enough to fit on an iPhone screen or similar display). We already have at least two good examples of this: the DDI Compendium and the PFSRD. Once you've got that in place, you can simply add new material as needed, and it immediately becomes available, easy to access... and it doesn't require people to look up several 'books' to determine the powers of a single monster/character/whatever.

As I see it, there remain two big problems with that approach:

- It's not clear how best to make money from this. The two competing approaches seem to be to offer access to the tool via subscription (as in DDI), or by effectively going free-to-play and making money by selling adventures, settings, and other supplementary materials that build on the database (the Pathfinder subscriptions model). Both seem to have legs... but it remains to be seen whether they're viable long-term, or if one or both will actually fold up once the edition reaches saturation.

- It's also not clear how best to handle change. Do you simply accept that things are basically fixed once printed (as in most games, where errata tend not to happen), do you gradually incorporate changes as time goes on (as in DDI with the periodic revisions), or do you go for a "big bang" approach where you effectively srap everything and go for a new edition?

The problem with that last, though, is that unless you completely switch off the old version (alienating your customers), you're now left competing with your own older version. And since the new edition cannot possibly have the same range of options available on day one (for obvious reasons), that means you're either stuck with your new edition essentially being compatible with the old (and so just being unusually-extensive errata), or it's effectively an entirely new game (as with 4e vs 3e, and 5e vs both 4e and 3e). But will either approach convert enough players to justify the effort? It doesn't seem to have done so thus far.

I may well be wrong, of course. I frequently am. But it does look to me like we may be reaching a point where new editions of successful games may no longer be a viable approach.

 

[n00bdragon]

I can only hope Pathfinder makes the jump at some point to a new edition with an entirely different set of rules. Dragging around that old circa-2000 era D20 system holds the whole game back and you can tell in every bit of its design. Then again, the only reason Pathfinder was ever successful is because of people who love the D20 system more than is probably healthy. Either way, it should be fun to watch.

Mod Note: Please see my post below. ~Umbran

 

[callinostros]

I can only hope Pathfinder makes the jump at some point to a new edition with an entirely different set of rules. Dragging around that old circa-2000 era D20 system holds the whole game back and you can tell in every bit of its design. Then again, the only reason Pathfinder was ever successful is because of people who love the D20 system more than is probably healthy. Either way, it should be fun to watch.

4E tried that and look where that got them. No, Pathfinder made their niche by giving the fans what they wanted, a continuation of 3E. If they stop doing that then they will lose their place and a lot of fans.

 

[billd91]

4E tried that and look where that got them. No, Pathfinder made their niche by giving the fans what they wanted, a continuation of 3E. If they stop doing that then they will lose their place and a lot of fans.

This doesn't mean, of course, that they can't evolve d20 a bit further. And I expect that's probably what we'll see in the next iteration of the Pathfinder rules some years down the line - some adjustments to the rule core that enable easy conversion of materials between editions.

 

[Imaro]

This doesn't mean, of course, that they can't evolve d20 a bit further. And I expect that's probably what we'll see in the next iteration of the Pathfinder rules some years down the line - some adjustments to the rule core that enable easy conversion of materials between editions.

Yeah but [MENTION=6689371]n00bdragon[/MENTION] in his slightly insulting post, claims Pathfinder should become "a new edition with an entirely different set of rules." That's a far cry from adjustments, tweaks and revisions.

 

[Imaro]

I can only hope Pathfinder makes the jump at some point to a new edition with an entirely different set of rules. Dragging around that old circa-2000 era D20 system holds the whole game back and you can tell in every bit of its design. Then again, the only reason Pathfinder was ever successful is because of people who love the D20 system more than is probably healthy. Either way, it should be fun to watch.

Good thing you've cracked the code on Pathfinder's continued success... not. Seriously dude, did you really post that??

How about you tell us some of the systems you enjoy so we can be mildly insulting by telling you you enjoy them to an unhealthy extent?