Is PCGen dead now?

[Brown Jenkin]

First of all, on the main page, the announcement indicates that E-tools users will be paying for their updates too - an E-tools user won't be getting all that WotC material for free.

I would have to say the main page is ambiguous on the e-tools side. That is why I posted the link to the CMP thread which seems to indicate that e-tools data sets are free.

 

[Hardhead]

From the Yahoo group, as posted by Merton Monk:

ETools users will get them for free? Somehow I missed that part of the announcement. The ETools data will be for sale just like the PCGen data. It wasn't a PCGen-data only for sale - there's no way I would have agreed to that! All Wizards IP data will be for sale for both PCGen and ETools. Very equitable and gives neither any preference. PCGen will, by its opensource nature, benefit from letting many times more people actively participate in its evolution whereas ETools will be tackled by a few in a purely commercial venture. ETools has advantages in not having to comply with certain licenses, so I think things even out. I think both will do well.

Here's the way I understand it. CMP will be charging for e-Tools data sets. However, they do not have the power to stop fans from sharing data sets. WotC may stop data sharing or they may not. I'd bet they will.


- Z a c h

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Yes that was a very clear statement. So I will acknowllege that e-tools will charge for data sets as well. That anouncement only came this afternoon and it was vague before that. Perhaps PCGen can survive, but we shall see after the pricing is determined.

 

[Ranger REG]

I don't know about you guys, but I'd be more interested in doing the task myself and save $5 a year ... that is, if I'm a PCGen user.

While it may be a great tool, it is not the perfect tool. So, I stick to the traditional pen and paper. That way I do not set myself up for a disappointment.

Then again, I've seen people who just enjoy ranting, especially those that are still in denial.

 

[Hardhead]

Then again, I've seen people who just enjoy ranting, especially those that are still in denial.

I don't enjoy ranting!

Oh, wait. Yes I do.

 

[Henry]

Thing is, Ranger REG, most people have one of two conditions - more money free than time, or vice versa. (Not that any of us necessarily have huge amounts of either, but still we usually have more of one than we do the other.) If they go through with it, at a nominal fee of say $5.00 for 3 years, then I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd still do it at $3.00 for 1 year, because chances are that the LST converters will still work for it for a very long period of time.

However, the longer they can keep backwards compatibility for LST files, the better they are at not segmenting their user base. If Microsoft required users to upgrade Word or Excel every single year, they wouldn't have half of the user base they do. As it is, Excel XP can still open an Excel 97 spreadsheet, and I believe the reverse is also true. If users could not open old data files with newer versions of programs, Microsoft would be bathed in class-action suits deeper than they could have dreamed, making their IE integration case look weak by comparison.

 

[NPC]

Another problem

I don't like this idea of paying for data, but using a free program to use the data.

So I've paid for my non-SRD subscription, but now the "free" program doesn't work. What happens?

Secondly, I'm not going to pay $5 per source per year. No way. Maybe $5 per year for all WoTC non-SRD material. But not much more.

Unfortunately, I see this thing turning into Napster all over again. Once the data files get on Kazaa, Grokster, et. al., a whole lot of money will not be made by CMP and WoTC.

I also wonder how happy e-Tooled users feel knowing that their $40 won't count towards the splatbooks?

Heck, you could spen just as much for Norton Antivirus and you get the virus definitions for a year.

Ugh. I'm sorry for the negativity, but this whole episode has been a real downer for me. I guess I just need to vent a bit.

 

[Henry]

Re: Another problem

Feel free to vent. It leads to a healthier you.

Heck, you could spen just as much for Norton Antivirus and you get the virus definitions for a year.

One difference in this analogy, though - the average user can't write their own virus definitions. However, one of the long-term goals for both e-tools and PCGen is the ability to enable users to add their own material with minimal learning curve. PCGen is almost there, and E-tools, thanks to Davin Church, is about 60% of the way there, needing a rather large overhaul to incorporate new ability features in the game not already respresented in the core rules.

 

[jdavis]

Re: Another problem

I also wonder how happy e-Tooled users feel knowing that their $40 won't count towards the splatbooks?

I was supposed to get the splatbook information when I bought e-tools? I did not know I thought I was buying just the program, I mean I never heard anybody say that all the information outthere would be included in the price of the program...... Ok I'm even sick of acting like a smart ass, as a "e-tooled" user (cute slang by the way) I never figured I was entitled to anything but a working program, and now I hear they will be making the program work right, that is wonderful news, it was never stated mentioned in passing or even implied that there would be any free add ons for the program. It was great that the user community created several and I will miss that but I never felt I was entitled to that due to the fact that I bought E-tools.

I don't care for the once a year payment but I would actually be willing to pay double or even triple for a lifetime single payment, it's not as much the money is the awkwardness of it. I don't want to rent information, of course if they did it for three years I would view that as totally different, I don't know where I will be living in three years, I do know my computer will be completly different in three years and I expect that all programs out there will be completly different and probably much better in three years, so I would expect to have to buy everything over by then anyway. Just as I moved from Windows 98 to Windows 2000 to Windows XP, so one year no, three years is the same as buying it to me, I've stated my opinion on it, I hope somebody cares., but will understand if nobody does.

 

[Psionicist]

PCGen and the GNU (Lesser/Library) General Public License, a couple of notes.

edit: Whoops, I misunderstood the whole thing. Please delete this thread.

edit 2: Or maybe not, you tell me.

This might have been adressed before, if so any moderator is free to delete this thread.

---

According to the GNU Lesser General Public License ( http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html ), and the GNU Library General Public License ( http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lgpl.html ), which PC Gen is released under ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcgen )

When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things

and

For example, if you distribute copies of the library, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that we gave you. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. If you link other code with the library, you must provide complete object files to the recipients, so that they can relink them with the library after making changes to the library and recompiling it. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.

and

We protect your rights with a two-step method: (1) we copyright the library, and (2) we offer you this license, which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the library.

This is what Free Software and Open Source is alla about.

So, whats up with that? Simply put, every release of PC Gen released under the terms of the General Public License can be distributed and modified exactly the way we want, legally, as stated in the license.

So, ladies and gentlemens. If we want this software (PCGen) to be free of charge, we can take the source code and change it, and release it under the GPL, free of charge.

There we go.