Is PF a good system for a party of "Bad Guys"

[StreamOfTheSky]

I really don't like +4 to a stat, and I think it's undervalued by most race creation systems. If there were a race that was +4 Int, -2 Str, -2 Cha, it would be difficult to choose anything else for a wizard character. A +2 bonus I can work around -- I don't feel too bad if I take a gnome wizard rather than elf or human. But if I leave a possible +4 Int on the table, then I'm letting my fellow players down if don't take it. Well, maybe I could play an elf or a human, but a gnome wizard? Fuhgeddaboudit. I might as well play an orc..

But it's not int. I don't think I mind +4 to a physical stat. +4 to a casting stat would be overpowered, absolutely. That should never happen. But even though dex is pretty good as a stat, it just doesn't compare to the value of a mental stat to a caster.

In my opinion, a +4 stat bonus needs to have some pretty crippling disadvantages to balance it. And I use the word 'crippling' very deliberately. Most disadvantages are easy to work around or relatively unimportant (Str and Cha to a wizard, for example). For +4 races, the disadvantages have to be a lot harsher to balance their ease of optimization. I should have to think long and hard about whether that +4 is really worth it.

I don't think any playable race should have "crippling"-ly bad aspects. I think if you're going to take it that far, just don't use +4 stat races to begin with. Goblin does have disadvantages -- it has a net +0 instead of +2. Modify Goblins to be +2 dex -2 str or +2 dex and...something? and -2 str or cha to be more in line with other races if you don't like the +4 that strongly.

In the case of goblins, no doubt it's worth it. Even the Str penalty isn't terribly difficult to work around. And on top of their Dex bonus, they also have a +4 Stealth racial, as well as +4 for small size. Your typical PC goblin has +16 Stealth at level 1. It makes it difficult to choose a non-goblin for pretty much any Dex-based class.

I disagree. Archers for one, would NOT want the size or dex penalty, no way no how. Stealth is pretty severely limited in PF, you're better off just using invisibility. The only reason my PF character uses stealth is because the game allows 3E feats so I could get darkstalker. It's basically only an appealing race to rogue types. Ones with sneak attack, basically. Those classes are pretty weak in PF, so...*shrug*

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I tried using the playtest rules to build a better kobold. This was what I came up with:

KoBOLD
-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con; Small Size; Speed 30 ft.; Darkvision 60 ft.; Light Sensitivity; +1 Natural Armour; +2 Racial Bonus on Craft (Trapmaking), Perception, and Profession (Miner); Craft (Trapmaking), Perception, and Stealth are always class skills; +1 Racial Bonus to Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Survival checks made undergrounds; Poison Use (never risk accidentally poisoning themselves); 1d2 Bite attack; Speak Common and Draconic; and Cat's Luck (once per day you can roll twice on a Reflex saving throw and take the better result).

That....is still appallingly awful. Net -4 when standard race has net +2 and light sensitivity. They'd need a net +6 to stats from that to even begin to look playable. I'd do +2 dex/int, -2 str, remove light blindness everything else as you have it. Cat's Luck can stay or go, reflex is not a very impotant save anyway.

 

[Systole]

Before I reply, should we take this to another thread? It's rapidly becoming a race-building discussion.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you want, I don't have much else to say, though. And the OP was looking for advice on running the evil races, and how well they're balanced is important for that.

 

[Systole]

Actually, neither do I. Although I disagree with you regarding physical vs. mental stats for melee vs. casters, that's an apples to oranges discussion that's destined to go nowhere.

So to the OP, I strongly recommend either Golden's Guide or waiting until the Paizo guide comes out to build/fix evil races, because at the very least SotS and I agree that the evil races are not totally balanced.