Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Psionicist said:
I... love you, man.
Is piracy a serious issue for game developers?
- Thread starter The Persian
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I... love you, man.
Storm Raven
First Post
Psionicist said:
In other words, you don't have anything useful to say, or any argument that would actually counter the point in question. You just want to quote a Nazi.
The Persian
First Post
To be truthful, it matters little who says something as long as it rings true for the majority.
Example, Joseph Stalin "One death is a tragedy, a million is a number" or something to that effect.
It doesn't matter what Stalin did in this case, in regards to his statement.
Generally I find that holds true, it's easier to relate or sympathize more easily to 1 or 2 deaths than a sudden mass loss life, not to say someone wouldn't care in the latter. But my point is that targetting the source isn't all that tasteful as long as we can apply it in current situations, or even other situations!
Humans have bias though, so I suppose I shouldn't be attacking you for defending your point view...
Example, Joseph Stalin "One death is a tragedy, a million is a number" or something to that effect.
It doesn't matter what Stalin did in this case, in regards to his statement.
Generally I find that holds true, it's easier to relate or sympathize more easily to 1 or 2 deaths than a sudden mass loss life, not to say someone wouldn't care in the latter. But my point is that targetting the source isn't all that tasteful as long as we can apply it in current situations, or even other situations!
Humans have bias though, so I suppose I shouldn't be attacking you for defending your point view...
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Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Storm Raven said:
Yeah, have you tried countering the point in question when stated that way?
They just repeat their statement. Again. And again. Which is why the quoted text is relevant.
I haven't seen a case of "proof by vigorous assertion" this bad since I stopped arguing theology in high school.
Psionicist
Explorer
Storm Raven said:
No, I quoted Wikipedia. And it's a valid point, even without the Goebbels part of the quote. I guess someone will mention Godwin's law now, despite the fact that it's on-subject.
Once again this topic is up and once again I do want to say something...
Anyway just collected some thing I want to comment to one BIG response... Wonder why my post count is still so low
Anyway I do disagree with you. Even I would be 100% sure that I am not caught I wouldn't steal any physical property. At least I think so. Just can't be sure because had I been without eating like week because of no money and could steal someones wallet... dunno. That is situation I haven't been in so can't be sure.
But there are some copied material that are campaign setting materials in stting I am currently playing in. I have read them and used them and in most cases bought them as books. There are some points that means something to me.
1) It is nice to read at bed when you cant sleep. That is the reason I print the bought pdfs I use.
2) Books look cool on shelf.
3) If I like it and use it what more excuses can I look for not to give author some compensation? None.
I do think that I have some morals and good ethics and reading here something that in short says you are a thief too is hurting me. And thus giving -10 circumtance penalty to my saving throw against being part at flaming or feeding troll.
Yes I would have gone to pay more, but I wouldnt have lowered my speed because in town there are more polices. I would have lowered my speed because that lower limit it there for reason. Think about kids and other people. If you are driving 140 mk/h at highway when there is limit of 120 and weather is good. Who am I endangering? Mostly myself but because good car and good road even that is minimal. Only ocassional moose or deer is danger but becase there is a fence on both sides of the road that is not bad. But when I am out of highway and driving within 50 km/h limits it is not me anymore I am endangering. There are other too, plenty of them who are not in car. Bicyclers, walkers and most of all KIDs. That is the reason why I am following speed limits tighter not because there are more cops.
Wow. I think that I just managed to use excuse number one. "Think about kids"
Anyway as a younger I noticed someone dropping 100 FIM (~17 EUR, but because it was like 15 years ago it was more likely closer to 30 EUR buying worth). I was a kid then and all money I had was given by parents (maybe 5-10 FIM per week). No one else noticed and guess what I did return the money.
I don't usually d/l rpg material from net because mostly it is waste of time. Reading EN World gives nowadays quite good hint about what to buy. Well there has been some cases that I have bought something that ppl are praised for and been disapointed and sorry about the amount of money I wasted. But I do d/l movies and there are many movies that I have bought as DVD after watching them from computer.
Enough about bosting my ego and showing how much better and holier I am than everyone else and trying to prove that to everyone here at EN world.
I think this is close to what all this is about. It is not about is it right or not. It is about peoples morals. Do ppl thing that someone should be compensated for that what they did do or not. Ppl d/l doesnät tell anything but if they doesn't have enough backbone to pay for that after they found that it was worth of it that is sad and wrong. It just descripes the situation where our world is currently. And the big question is why and what can be done. Not to cry and make more laws and harder punishments. Maybe parents should be home more and not running after more and more money.
So shortly. My two opinions are
1) it is wrong to take something physical from someone.
2) If it is not physical but gives some value for you pay for.
If you d/l book and enjoy it pay the writer. If it sucks dont read it.
if you d/l RPG book and use it buy the book or pdf.
If you can't afford it pay when you can. I had a almost half a year break from buying from RPGNow because money went somewhere else. But now when both swords and fencing mask is paid for... Money comes and money goes. It just is not enough for everything I want so have to priorise.
I think I just rolled 1. Maybe even couple of those in row. Or I am just easy...Brent_Nall said:Woo hoo! I rolled a natural 20 on my will save! I don't have to post anything meaningful (or not, for those of you who would disagree with me) on this thread!
Argh, maties!
Anyway just collected some thing I want to comment to one BIG response... Wonder why my post count is still so low
So now piracy means copying it to home? Just want to make sure we are talking about same things because I am still mostly at mode where piracy it trying to gain monetary beneficts through copying&selling.Primitive Screwhead said:
Anyway I do disagree with you. Even I would be 100% sure that I am not caught I wouldn't steal any physical property. At least I think so. Just can't be sure because had I been without eating like week because of no money and could steal someones wallet... dunno. That is situation I haven't been in so can't be sure.
Hmmm... potential sale. What excatly is a potential sale? Is it "I would have bought this hadn't I D/L it"? Well had I D/L it and used it I would have bought it later. So I am not lost sale. If I know nothing about that I won't buy it.philreed said:
Well I did too. This almost reminds me about one discussion I had at irc. We were talking about one B5 episode. Can't remember excalty but it was about can one be killed to save many. Well that was my point and his was why can't dead person be sacrificed over many. We had totaly different point of view. The one in question was recovered by doctor -> My opinion was she/he (can't remember gender) wan't dead and murdering one even to save many is wrong. He opinion was that that person was dead, even that doctor could recover him. Only think I could say was that in my opinion that they did right thing (wouldn't have blamed anyone had the situation been real and they chosen differently) and we have different point of view that can be easily compared. Well he did keep "yelling" that I am stupid and they should have saved many because patient was already dead and why can't I understand that. Well telling that I my opinion patient wasn't dead yet didn't help... "He is dead can't you understand that? And it was wrong." Well he didn't get that that in my opinion he wasn't dead and thus it was right thing to do and because we have different basepoints comparing our opinions doesn't lead to anywhere (apples and oranges). Well long story short - uh - sorry short story told long.Morrus said:
Well I never haven't D/L illegal pdf either. I have D/L some "legal" ones without paying the artist. The main point is that we have levy in Finland and thus it is legal to d/l. Well programs are illegal to even d/l. So that is the reason why I don't like it being called stealing. Stealing is illegal here but d/l is not. Well that is only here in Finland though. I have paid for many pdfs and will continue buying them.S'mon said:I've never downloaded an illegal .pdf, nor have I ever paid for a .pdf. Both seem wrong, somehow.
Touche. My "illegal" legaly copied pdfs are from friend who hoarded every d20 prf he could find from p2p. I copied them with removable hard drive. Do I have had enough time to go through that gigs of pdfs? Hell no. I have plenty of bought ones that I thought are cool and maybe can use at games but haven't had enought time to properly read them to import them at game. Life sucksfrancisca said:
But there are some copied material that are campaign setting materials in stting I am currently playing in. I have read them and used them and in most cases bought them as books. There are some points that means something to me.
1) It is nice to read at bed when you cant sleep. That is the reason I print the bought pdfs I use.
2) Books look cool on shelf.
3) If I like it and use it what more excuses can I look for not to give author some compensation? None.
I hate thieves too, but just can think I am one. Just like I earlier told d/l is not illegal here and givin a few copies for close friends is allowed in law too. So I am thinking that I am not doing anything wrong. Sharing pdfs with p2p is not allowed just a few copies for friends.Bloodstone Press said:
I do think that I have some morals and good ethics and reading here something that in short says you are a thief too is hurting me. And thus giving -10 circumtance penalty to my saving throw against being part at flaming or feeding troll.
Bloodstone Press said:
Yes I would have gone to pay more, but I wouldnt have lowered my speed because in town there are more polices. I would have lowered my speed because that lower limit it there for reason. Think about kids and other people. If you are driving 140 mk/h at highway when there is limit of 120 and weather is good. Who am I endangering? Mostly myself but because good car and good road even that is minimal. Only ocassional moose or deer is danger but becase there is a fence on both sides of the road that is not bad. But when I am out of highway and driving within 50 km/h limits it is not me anymore I am endangering. There are other too, plenty of them who are not in car. Bicyclers, walkers and most of all KIDs. That is the reason why I am following speed limits tighter not because there are more cops.
Wow. I think that I just managed to use excuse number one. "Think about kids"
Anyway as a younger I noticed someone dropping 100 FIM (~17 EUR, but because it was like 15 years ago it was more likely closer to 30 EUR buying worth). I was a kid then and all money I had was given by parents (maybe 5-10 FIM per week). No one else noticed and guess what I did return the money.
FraserRonald said:
I don't usually d/l rpg material from net because mostly it is waste of time. Reading EN World gives nowadays quite good hint about what to buy
. Well there has been some cases that I have bought something that ppl are praised for and been disapointed and sorry about the amount of money I wasted. But I do d/l movies and there are many movies that I have bought as DVD after watching them from computer.But tell me why there should be hevier punishment from pirating than murdering someone? At least this apears to be the trend.Bloodstone Press said:
Sundragon2012 said:
Enough about bosting my ego and showing how much better and holier I am than everyone else and trying to prove that to everyone here at EN world.
I think this is close to what all this is about. It is not about is it right or not. It is about peoples morals. Do ppl thing that someone should be compensated for that what they did do or not. Ppl d/l doesnät tell anything but if they doesn't have enough backbone to pay for that after they found that it was worth of it that is sad and wrong. It just descripes the situation where our world is currently. And the big question is why and what can be done. Not to cry and make more laws and harder punishments. Maybe parents should be home more and not running after more and more money.
So shortly. My two opinions are
1) it is wrong to take something physical from someone.
2) If it is not physical but gives some value for you pay for.
If you d/l book and enjoy it pay the writer. If it sucks dont read it.
if you d/l RPG book and use it buy the book or pdf.
If you can't afford it pay when you can. I had a almost half a year break from buying from RPGNow because money went somewhere else. But now when both swords and fencing mask is paid for... Money comes and money goes. It just is not enough for everything I want so have to priorise.
DreadPirateMurphy
Explorer
Let's simplify.
People do work for compensation. That compensation can be monetary, or it might be something else like satisfaction. In a capitalist society, money is the typical measure of value, so we can simplify and say people work because they are paid for that work.
Copyright laws are designed to ensure that creators receive value from the intangible aspects of thier creations -- images, stories, music, etc. You pay the creator for the results of their efforts and talent (plus distributors, marketers, etc., who add value from somebody's standpoint).
Everything we're talking about is basically a LUXURY good. This is not food, housing, or medical care. It is stuff you buy to have fun.
So, those who pirate are arguing that they should have the fruits of another's work because they want to have fun using those products but can't afford them.
If I say that I am going to write a book, and I expect people to pay me for that work, then that is my perogative. I am not obligated to give it to you for free just because you like it. At what point did you become special?
Justifications of piracy are ALWAYS self-centered. There is no moral imperative to provide everybody with entertainment. It is blatantly self-serving on the part of the arguer.
If you don't like the details of the law, e.g., you think copyrights last too long, or you don't like the definition of fair use, then you are free to be socially active and campaign to change it. Copyrights are not sacred, and there is room for compromise within the framework of our system of government.
You are not free to break the law for selfish reasons and then expect others to accept your tortured justifications. Information has inherent value, and if you take it without paying for it, then you are stealing.
People do work for compensation. That compensation can be monetary, or it might be something else like satisfaction. In a capitalist society, money is the typical measure of value, so we can simplify and say people work because they are paid for that work.
Copyright laws are designed to ensure that creators receive value from the intangible aspects of thier creations -- images, stories, music, etc. You pay the creator for the results of their efforts and talent (plus distributors, marketers, etc., who add value from somebody's standpoint).
Everything we're talking about is basically a LUXURY good. This is not food, housing, or medical care. It is stuff you buy to have fun.
So, those who pirate are arguing that they should have the fruits of another's work because they want to have fun using those products but can't afford them.
If I say that I am going to write a book, and I expect people to pay me for that work, then that is my perogative. I am not obligated to give it to you for free just because you like it. At what point did you become special?
Justifications of piracy are ALWAYS self-centered. There is no moral imperative to provide everybody with entertainment. It is blatantly self-serving on the part of the arguer.
If you don't like the details of the law, e.g., you think copyrights last too long, or you don't like the definition of fair use, then you are free to be socially active and campaign to change it. Copyrights are not sacred, and there is room for compromise within the framework of our system of government.
You are not free to break the law for selfish reasons and then expect others to accept your tortured justifications. Information has inherent value, and if you take it without paying for it, then you are stealing.
The Persian
First Post
Information has value? Wow, i didn't know you could tag a dollar value on how to make fire!
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
It probably hasn't impacted the print publishers, like WoTC, as much as it may have publishers who are primarily PDF, but seeing as how people claim you can get anything in PDF these days, either the stuff is out there and not putting the big hurt on the PDF publishers, or the threat is overstated.
Psionicist
Explorer
Yet another post. This is to the anti-piracy-gang:
I can accept if a writer wants to be compensated for his work. If that's the case, say that. Don't start to argue about morals/ethics/legality etc. It won't help you.
Why?
This is an international forum.
Using the word "illegal" to prove your point is dumb.
Even if you think this is the case, US law does not apply in the rest of the world. Until recently it was perfectly legal to download anything in Sweden. It's still perfectly legal to download whatever you want in lots of countries. I don't care what you can or cannot do according to US law.
Talking about "ethics" and "morals" to prove your point is dumb.
In Japan you can buy "Lolicon" in regular bookstores. Do you know what lolicon is? It's porn cartoons with naked children age 3-17 or so (check Wikipedia). Lots of japanese men think this is sexually arousing. Nothing wrong with that over there. Damn, that boggled your mind didn't it? Japanese men probably don't give a damn what YOU think of the subject, it's okay where they live. In many countries, people don't care at all if anyone downloads anything. They don't care about your morals or ethics either.
I say we skip the debate of whether or not something is "legal" or "moral", because these two are by far not universal.
I can accept if a writer wants to be compensated for his work. If that's the case, say that. Don't start to argue about morals/ethics/legality etc. It won't help you.
Why?
This is an international forum.
Using the word "illegal" to prove your point is dumb.
Even if you think this is the case, US law does not apply in the rest of the world. Until recently it was perfectly legal to download anything in Sweden. It's still perfectly legal to download whatever you want in lots of countries. I don't care what you can or cannot do according to US law.
Talking about "ethics" and "morals" to prove your point is dumb.
In Japan you can buy "Lolicon" in regular bookstores. Do you know what lolicon is? It's porn cartoons with naked children age 3-17 or so (check Wikipedia). Lots of japanese men think this is sexually arousing. Nothing wrong with that over there. Damn, that boggled your mind didn't it?
Japanese men probably don't give a damn what YOU think of the subject, it's okay where they live. In many countries, people don't care at all if anyone downloads anything. They don't care about your morals or ethics either.I say we skip the debate of whether or not something is "legal" or "moral", because these two are by far not universal.
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