D&D 5E (2014) Is Point Buy Balanced?

[Lakesidefantasy]

Normally I wouldn't care but there are already two other threads on rolling, can we not derail this one?

You're right, good point.

 

[Remathilis]

Our Characters need to live in interesting times, otherwise this game would be more of a farm simulator.

Oh adventures should be interesting in both definitions, but I don't consider the interesting part gambling during char gen for a playable character.

But that's not what this thread is about. Carry on.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Is Point Buy Balanced? I'm not asking if Point Buy is more balanced?, but rather, is it totally balanced?

It is reasonably balanced. The pursuit of absolute perfection is rarely worth the price paid--but pushing toward better is often still worthwhile.

One of those combinations is the Standard Array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Another is 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Are these two combinations balanced against each other? Would two characters created with these combinations be equally effective? Would two characters of identical Race, Background, and Class built with each of these combinations be equally effective?

In order: Yes. Usually no. Usually no.

"Balance" does not mean removing the possibility of bad/incorrect/worse/less-effective choices. Rather, it means that applying basic reasoning is likely to lead to choices that are generally pretty good. Being +1 or +2 at everything generally isn't as good as being +3 at one or two things, +2 at a couple others, and being lower at anything else. Or, more simply: What things power the stuff you do a lot? Make those numbers bigger first.

They may be very few score combinations that are as stark as the ones above. It may be true that 90% of combinations are balanced against each other. But, then again, maybe it's more like 50%.

Food for thought: What high score is considered the minimum for an effective build? 16? 15? 13? I once was told characters need at least a 14 in constitution alone to be effective.

These two statements can be addressed together. Do you have at least one stat you can increase to 16? Do you have at least one other stat of 14 or better? Have you avoided odd scores as much as possible?

If the answer to all of these questions is "yes", then you have a fairly good set. If the answer to any single one of them is "no", then it's okay, but you're accepting some slight reduction in power. If the answer is "no" to more than one question, you might want to re-evaluate. The last question is pretty loose, because it has to be; with 27 point-buy, it is possible to have all even-numbered stats and 1 point left over, meaning you may need to accept one odd stat.

If you care enough for an actual numerical evaluation of how many PB options conform to this setup, I can do so. Generating the total number of valid PB slates will be a slight pain, but not too difficult.

Anyway what do you think? Is Point Buy totally balanced?°°°

° If I recall correctly.
°° As opposed to permutations, of which there are billions.
°°° Remember, any comparison to rolling is irrelevant because this thread is about the balance of the Point Buy method compared to itself.

Combinations with repetition would be (16+6-1) choose 6 = 21 choose 6 = 54624, so yes, your number is correct. And yes, the number of permutations is 16^6 = 16777216. Combos-with-rep, where you have n options and pick r from them, is always (n+r-1) choose r, and permutations is always n^r.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It's important to remember that "Is it balanced?" and "Is it fun?" are separate questions.

For some of us, not completely (though they're not identical sets).

 

[Thomas Shey]

things don't need to be the same to be balanced.

Some people think of a lot of balance being too samey, though. I've seen it often enough in places where I didn't agree it was true.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmmm, maybe we could analyse all the permutations of the Standard Array and see how they effect things.

Does anybody know how many permutations of six values there are? Is it 6^6. That seems like a lot.

6!

Would be 6^6 if religion was allowed.

 

[Maxperson]

Is Point Buy Balanced? I'm not asking if Point Buy is more balanced?, but rather, is it totally balanced?

There are over 54,000° combinations°° of ability scores. From 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, to 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18; and everything in between. With Point Buy this gets reduced to a few hundred that are equivalent to 27 points.

One of those combinations is the Standard Array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Another is 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Are these two combinations balanced against each other? Would two characters created with these combinations be equally effective? Would two characters of identical Race, Background, and Class built with each of these combinations be equally effective?

They may be very few score combinations that are as stark as the ones above. It may be true that 90% of combinations are balanced against each other. But, then again, maybe it's more like 50%.

Food for thought: What high score is considered the minimum for an effective build? 16? 15? 13? I once was told characters need at least a 14 in constitution alone to be effective.

Anyway what do you think? Is Point Buy totally balanced?°°°

° If I recall correctly.
°° As opposed to permutations, of which there are billions.
°°° Remember, any comparison to rolling is irrelevant because this thread is about the balance of the Point Buy method compared to itself.

More or less, yes. Bonuses in 5e don't mean a whole heck of a lot. You'll see the optimizers talk about how +1 gives you a 32%(or whatever) increase in damage, which sounds like a lot until you realize that it's still just +1. Combat averages about 4 rounds and you will hit 1 more time every 20 swings on average, so about once every 5 combats. Against multiple big bags of hit points. And you will do 1 more point of damage, against multiple big bags of hit points. You aren't likely at low level to hit the same monster more than a couple of times, so the extra 1 damage won't mean much. Hell, you won't even notice it unless the DM goes out of his way to let you know that this particular time that +1 damage put it exactly at 0.

Even when you reach extra attack it will be one extra hit every 2.5 combats. Given die rolling you still aren't going to know when that extra hit happens.

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 will be ever so imperceptibly better in the prime areas, and ever so imperceptibly weaker in the secondary areas, which still matter, when compared to 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Both will perform well in 5e.

That's why I will always pick a feat over stat increases. You're going to see the effect of the feat far more often than you will the stat increase, and it will have a much greater impact on the game.

 

[Maxperson]

The system math is largely built around the assumption that PCs will start with a +3 (so 16 or 17) in their class’s primary ability score, and a +2 (so 14 or 15) in their class’s secondary ability score. That doesn’t mean these scores are required for an effective build, but it does mean that a character will be below the baseline expectation without them, so they may seem to under-perform slightly. It’s not a huge deal, you absolutely can play a character with a +2 in their primary or +1 in their secondary just fine. But, if possible, I think it’s ideal to try to get a +3 in your primary, +2 in your secondary, and whatever your next best score is (likely another +2 if you’re using point buy) in constitution.

According to the game designers the game isn't balanced around PC numbers at all. It's balanced around what their powers do.

 

[Charlaquin]

According to the game designers the game isn't balanced around PC numbers at all. It's balanced around what their powers do.

What statement are referring to?

 

[Horwath]

The last question is pretty loose, because it has to be; with 27 point-buy, it is possible to have all even-numbered stats and 1 point left over, meaning you may need to accept one odd stat.

you can have all even stats with 27 point buy.

14,14,14,10,10,10 is 28pts
if you count on background +2/-1 or +1/+1/+1

you can have:
14+2, 13+1,14, 12,10,10

15+1,15+1,15+1,8,8,8

13+1,13+1,13+1,12,12,12

or one odd score intentional for 4th level bump to 18

15+2,14,13+1, 10,10,10

you need 3 stats at 13 or higher to be combined with background ASI to be even.