D&D 5E (2014) Is Point Buy Balanced?

[TwoSix]

If you care enough for an actual numerical evaluation of how many PB options conform to this setup, I can do so. Generating the total number of valid PB slates will be a slight pain, but not too difficult.

There are only 65 valid 27-point arrays, so it shouldn't be too difficult to determine which ones match those rules. I'll take a quick look.

Edit: Of the 65 valid arrays, only 20 meet these rules.
1) No odd stats after racial/floating/background stat adjustments. Practically, this means either one odd stat in the array (for +2/+1) or three odd stats (for +1/+1/+1).
2) Highest stat is 16+ after stat adjustments.
3) Second highest stat is 14+ after stat adjustments.

14, 14, 12, 12, 11, 10
14, 14, 12, 12, 12, 9
14, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 8
15, 12, 12, 12, 12, 10
15, 13, 12, 12, 11, 10
15, 13, 12, 12, 12, 9
15, 13, 13, 12, 10, 10
15, 13, 13, 12, 12, 8
15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 9
15, 14, 14, 11, 9, 8
15, 14, 14, 12, 8, 8
15, 15, 11, 10, 10, 10
15, 15, 12, 10, 10, 9
15, 15, 12, 11, 10, 8
15, 15, 12, 12, 9, 8
15, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8
15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8
15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

 

[Horwath]

There are only 65 valid 27-point arrays, so it shouldn't be too difficult to determine which ones match those rules. I'll take a quick look.

Edit: Of the 65 valid arrays, only 20 meet these rules.
1) No odd stats after racial/floating/background stat adjustments. Practically, this means either one odd stat in the array (for +2/+1) or three odd stats (for +1/+1/+1).
2) Highest stat is 16+ after stat adjustments.
3) Second highest stat is 14+ after stat adjustments.

14, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 8
15, 13, 13, 12, 10, 10
15, 13, 13, 12, 12, 8
15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
15, 14, 14, 12, 8, 8
15, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8
15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8
15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

great, but you should eliminate all options that waste +1/+2 increase on a stat lower than 13. As an advice at least.

 

[TwoSix]

There are only 65 valid 27-point arrays, so it shouldn't be too difficult to determine which ones match those rules. I'll take a quick look.

Edit: Of the 65 valid arrays, only 20 meet these rules.
1) No odd stats after racial/floating/background stat adjustments. Practically, this means either one odd stat in the array (for +2/+1) or three odd stats (for +1/+1/+1).
2) Highest stat is 16+ after stat adjustments.
3) Second highest stat is 14+ after stat adjustments.

14, 14, 12, 12, 11, 10
14, 14, 12, 12, 12, 9
14, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 8
15, 12, 12, 12, 12, 10
15, 13, 12, 12, 11, 10
15, 13, 12, 12, 12, 9
15, 13, 13, 12, 10, 10
15, 13, 13, 12, 12, 8
15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 9
15, 14, 14, 11, 9, 8
15, 14, 14, 12, 8, 8
15, 15, 11, 10, 10, 10
15, 15, 12, 10, 10, 9
15, 15, 12, 11, 10, 8
15, 15, 12, 12, 9, 8
15, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8
15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8
15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

Ironically, my actual preferred arrays doesn't follow the rules above; I prefer starting with a main stat 17 at level 1 so I can take a half-feat (or 2024 level 4+ feat) at level 4 to get to 18.

15,15,14,10,8,8 is my point buy go-to.

 

[Maxperson]

What statement are referring to?

The ones around bounded accuracy where they say they don't consider PC numbers, but just PC abilities.

edit: Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Bounded Accuracy)

"The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster's hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character's increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.

Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don't have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.

This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level."

They don't assume a 16 in the prime stat.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

If you care enough for an actual numerical evaluation of how many PB options conform to this setup, I can do so. Generating the total number of valid PB slates will be a slight pain, but not too difficult.

Would you? I might be able to find my old spreadsheets from a decade ago. In there I generated all 54,000+ combinations. Would that help?

Also, I was talking with Alexa this morning and found that the number of permutations of the Standard Array is 6!=720. Can you confirm that?

 

[Maxperson]

This sounds like a conversation about math. I'm out!!!

If Bobby had 197 longswords and the thieves guild stole 62 of them...

 

[Maxperson]

You realize the Chinese phrase "May you live in interesting times" is a curse, right?

You don't want your game to be interesting to your players? As a DM one of the worst things I can look out at is uninterested players.

 

[Maxperson]

Which, after some quick Googling, apparently isn't actually Chinese in origin at all.

Right. We all know the true origin.

 

[Ramhorn]

I would agree that Point Buy is not as balanced as Standard Array, but I will say that I prefer Point Buy for the customization it allows as well as helping support more classes and subclasses that depend on having 3 ability scores be high.

Monks, Rangers, and spell-casting martial subclasses really want to have reasonable ability modifiers and justifiably treat one ability score as a dump stat.

While you have more tuned characters by the end of character creation, some concessions still need to be made for some character builds, and I think the wider variety of lv.1-3 characters is better for the game.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

6!

Would be 6^6 if religion was allowed.

That is a pretty cool autocorrect/swipe typo.

Thanks, and had I read your post earlier I wouldn't have had to talk to Alexa about it.