D&D 5E (2014) Is Point Buy Balanced?

[ECMO3]

But it did point out a certain .... unfairness, and made for a helluva time planning encounters.

dice are random. There is always going to be unfairness if you are rolling.

 

[ECMO3]

What I find more of a nuisance - as in, tougher to deal with as DM - is the inevitable hit point imbalance that comes with higher levels. A high-con warrior type who gets to 10th-ish level is likely to have double or triple or even quadruple the hit points of the party's squishier members at the same level (regardless whether hit points are rolled or fixed), meaning something that does enough damage to seriously threaten the tank is going to wipe out the squishies without a second thought.

IME as both a DM and as a player, the players with a high AC and ways of imposing disadvantage are WAY more durable in play than PCs who rely on higher hit points.

There are enemies that can wipe out the "squishies" with AOEs but there are more enemies that will quickly drain the guys who rely on high hit points.

 

[Electrik Wizard]

Is Point Buy Balanced? I'm not asking if Point Buy is more balanced?, but rather, is it totally balanced?

Define balance. The point buy system provides balance, but not (exactly) in the way you think. This is explained in my conclusion at the bottom if you want to skip the rest of my reply.

One of those combinations is the Standard Array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Another is 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Are these two combinations balanced against each other? Would two characters created with these combinations be equally effective? Would two characters of identical Race, Background, and Class built with each of these combinations be equally effective?

Yes. Let's assume those scores are played in character sheet order, strength to charisma, and they're barbarians (any race or background).

They have the same AC, but the Standard Array barbarian is slightly stronger, has a slightly better chance to hit their target, and does slightly more damage.

The 13/12 barbarian isn't quiet as strong, but better at wisdom or charisma saves. Their offensive capabilities aren't quite as good, but their all around defences are slightly better. But they're also going to have a slight edge over the standard guy in any check made for knowledge, instinct, or personality based events.

But let's say that you had a barbarian with 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8. This guy is the equal of the Standard Array barbarian in Strength, and surpasses both in AC. But they have a slight disadvantage in all mental saves and checks.

It seems like the thing that brings them the balance is the fact that modifiers are so small.

They may be very few score combinations that are as stark as the ones above. It may be true that 90% of combinations are balanced against each other. But, then again, maybe it's more like 50%.

Here's the thing; too much balance was one of the more frustrating aspects of 4th edition.

D&D isn't about balance, it's about synergy; these things aren't synonymous. It's more of a combat game than ever before, but if the classes are all the same it starts to feel homogeneous.

The point of a standard array is more about fairness. Sure, a wizard with a 15 in intelligence is going to do more overall damage than a barbarian with 15 in strength, but the way those two classes work together is what makes the game interesting.

Food for thought: What high score is considered the minimum for an effective build? 16? 15? 13? I once was told characters need at least a 14 in constitution alone to be effective.

Constitution is important for everybody, especially low HP classes. It's arguably more important for all magic users because of concentration checks, though the wizard has the lowest basic HP of all. For a barbarian (sorry to lean so heavily on that class as an example), offering more constitution is like offering a rich man more money; they'll still take it, even if they don't need it as much.

Anyway what do you think? Is Point Buy totally balanced?°°°

It's balanced enough. But the point isn't to make it so that two of the same class are totally equal.

°°° Remember, any comparison to rolling is irrelevant because this thread is about the balance of the Point Buy method compared to itself.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm ignoring this, but the points buying system is specifically there to address the imbalances of dice based score determation.

eg; Two new players roll their 3d6 * 6 at their very first session. One gets a 12, 10, 8, 6, 6, and 5. The other gets 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, and 10.

The first player only ever gets to add one to their best ability score, and has to subtract from most of them. The other player gets to add FOUR to their best score, and gets to add to most of their other scores.

(If this was the Avengers, it'd be like Happy Hogan next to Hulk with Brace Banner's brain).

This is an extreme example but it happens, and there's a chance that player one probably isn't going to turn up for session 2.

My main problem with the points buy is that it doesn't go far enough. I feel like it should give the option to have at least one 18, but at the expense of having a 6 or lower in another ability. The character would be exceptional in some ways, and get to feel like a hero when performing related tasks, but at the expense of being flawed in other ways. Or at least a variant option for this, depending on the setting and the tone you want to evoke. (It'd be good for heroic fantasy, less so for anything darker and more gritty).

I know you're meant to start at level 1, and a level 1 adventurer isn't supposed to be as amazing as a level 20 demigod, but your average D&D game is likely to be heroic fantasy, and it doesn't exactly feel good of the average PC is little different than a typical NPC commoner.

 

[ECMO3]

Food for thought: What high score is considered the minimum for an effective build? 16? 15? 13? I once was told characters need at least a 14 in constitution alone to be effective.

The three strongest 5E characters I made on point buy all had a 10 Constitution. I've only played 1 character with below a 10, but that character was fine too.

With smart play, Constitution is not very important for many builds in my opinion, especially when there are other ways to get extra hit points or abilities where you don't drop at 0 hps.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

The three strongest 5E characters I made on point buy all had a 10 Constitution. I've only played 1 character with below a 10, but that character was fine too.

With smart play, Constitution is not very important for many builds in my opinion, especially when there are other ways to get extra hit points or abilities where you don't drop at 0 hps.

This is a revelation to me! I never take below 12 con if I can mange it.

What do you do to mitigate? I am guessing these are casters with get away abilities?

 

[Lanefan]

This is a revelation to me! I never take below 12 con if I can mange it.

What do you do to mitigate? I am guessing these are casters with get away abilities?

Or find a way to pile on temporary hit points faster than you lose them?

 

[ECMO3]

This is a revelation to me! I never take below 12 con if I can mange it.

What do you do to mitigate? I am guessing these are casters with get away abilities?

All three of those powerful PCs with a 10 Constitution were Wizards, two of them were Bladesingers. Almost all my PCs have below a 14, 12 is the most common, 10 is second most common. I've never played a point buy PC with higher than a 14 Constitution and I have only played with a 14 twice and both of those times I had an ability that used Constitution for the save.

Absorb Elements and Shield with a very high AC are very effective. Playing a Half Orc or Aasimar helps a lot and Dwarf helps a little. A Tiefling can be effective too - resistance to fire is not as good as the resistance to necrotic + radiant you get with Aasimar, especially if you have access to Absorb Elements. But on the right kind of PC (especially an EK fighter) you can pick up Blind Fighting and combine it with your innate darkness. Any ability or item that lets you Frighten enemies - you can get Wrathful Smite on a feat, and pipes of Haunting don't require attunment or concentration. Frightened enemies are at disadvantage to hit you and often they can't even close to melee and need to use less effective or somethimes no attacks. These are a few of the things.

In 2024, one thing you can do is 2 levels of Warlock (with any class). This can get you both Tough and Fiendish Vigor. In terms of hit points, the Tough feat is equivalent to 4 points in constitution and Fiendish Vigor is much better than 2 points of Constitution in tier 1-3. In tier 4 when temp hit points become a lot more common the value of FV goes down. Add in two pact slots, three spells and another Invocation of your choice and this is a no-briainer if you are trying to build a durable Charisma caster.

Right now, I am playing a 4th level PC using the new HOF book, she is currently a Ranger 2/Warlock 2. I am playing a Cult of the Dragon character so she is not that optimized, or that powerful but she does have a 19 AC, 33hp and Fiendish Vigor. Add in bonus action Armor of Agathys, topping up her up with temp hps after every fight with Goodberry and occasionally Blind Fighting in a Fog Cloud and she is the most durable of our current party at this level. The Barbarian has a 16 Constitution and 42hps, but my PC has 45 hps counting Fiendish Vigor. The Dwarf Wizard 3/Ranger 1 is pretty durable too and has a 14 Con (I think), but neither are as durable IMO as my character is due to the "top up" effect of Fiendish Vigor (and Goodberry, although I share those). Here is her sheet (note this sheet is 5th level in anticipation of leveling tomorrow):

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

The World's most intelligent Dungeons and Dragons Character Sheet.

www.dndbeyond.com

The Constitution saves are a different story as those are still low. That is a tradeoff though. I tend to put Wisdom on the top of the "big 3" saves so usually that is what I go after proficiency in, I put Dex and Con as a second tier. A lot of people talk about Concentration saves, but I don't usually find it is that big of a deal to lose concentration and if you run a very high AC or things like Mirror Image it is going to be hard to hit you. When I do lose concentration, cast the spell again if it is that important.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

Define balance. The point buy system provides balance, but not (exactly) in the way you think. This is explained in my conclusion at the bottom if you want to skip the rest of my reply.

Yes. Let's assume those scores are played in character sheet order, strength to charisma, and they're barbarians (any race or background).

They have the same AC, but the Standard Array barbarian is slightly stronger, has a slightly better chance to hit their target, and does slightly more damage.

The 13/12 barbarian isn't quiet as strong, but better at wisdom or charisma saves. Their offensive capabilities aren't quite as good, but their all around defences are slightly better. But they're also going to have a slight edge over the standard guy in any check made for knowledge, instinct, or personality based events.

But let's say that you had a barbarian with 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8. This guy is the equal of the Standard Array barbarian in Strength, and surpasses both in AC. But they have a slight disadvantage in all mental saves and checks.

It seems like the thing that brings them the balance is the fact that modifiers are so small.

I'm not sure what balance is but some have suggested in this thread that the Standard Array is the most balanced. I think this is simply because there is only one set of scores to "choose" from.

"It seems like the thing that brings them the balance is the fact that modifiers are so small."

Yeah, this is a good point. The difference between an 8 (-1) and a 15 (+2) is 3. That means there are 4 possibilities when comparing ability scores: They are either the same, or they are different by 1, 2, or 3 modifier points.

However, most likely there will only be 1 or 2 modifier points difference as in the barbarians above.

So yeah, balance is pursued by the constrained number of options.