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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jimlock" data-source="post: 5592674" data-attributes="member: 6674931">I believe I've explained thoroughly how I do not agree with your views on skills.So, please, I beg you, do not tell me once more how I failed to meet your argument. Your argument has been met. It's just that you don't agree with it.That's fine! We are here to... also... disagree.Let me clarify our differences:You - You feel that basic skills are not really available to every class but the rogue. In your opinion others classes should be able to do a big part of what the rogue does, especially considering skills such as spot, listen, sense motive etc...By this... skill "deregulation", you believe it'll be pointless to have a class that simply uses skills, since, now all other classes can have them.(This is what I understand from your posts in general)Me - A skill with 0 ranks, uses the ability modifier. Any skill that does not require training can be used like that. This represents the average ability of a person in a game to spot, listen etc. All classes have access to those skills and it's only natural. When you start spending skill points on a skill, it means that you actually train those skills/senses so as to score "HIGHER THAN AVERAGE".When you spend skill points, it means that you actually take some action/training/exercise, that makesyou "professionaly-better" in that specific skill. If I could make an example out of driving...:When I drive to work every morning I do not train my "drive skill".  Me and everybody else on the road has 1 or perhaps 2 ranks in drive (that could easily be a 0, but I take it that Skill-Drive is a trained only skill). You get that for getting your driver's license and for the experience you obtain over time... but we actually never go above this. Now... what does it really mean if I start spending skill points on drive?It means that I'm getting trained to be a race driver!5 ranks? local tournament...10 ranks? I make it to national...15 ranks? I'm in the top league of my country..20? I'm in F1 or WRC...30? I'm Michael Schumacher!!!!The fact that for a rogue it's more easy to train his skills/senses, is because his "profession" entails much bigger an involvement with those skills/senses.As I described above with the modern-crook example, you will notice how it makes sense.Keep in mind that not all rogues are the same.They sure get many skill points, but even that is not enough to cover one's expertise in EVERY domainThere are social skills, there are stealth skill's, there are perception skills, there are athletic skills, there are knowledge skills etc etc...A rogue can never cover all those domains.... He might be really good in disguise and bluff and he can be good at passing by unnoticed, but he can't be just as good in using magical items, diplomacy, knowledge skills, climbing, tumbling etc... etc...That is to say, that even the famous "skill monkey" CANNOT be good at every skill his class offers him.At 20th level... he has covered some holes....but we better not get into that ...considering what spell casters are capable of at that level....Now, why do I blame the gamers and not the game?Because it's the player's fault if he expects his Wizard to be just as good in Spot as the Rogue is!It's not the game's fault if he spends all his skills in his class skills, so as to create the "master Wizard"!The player should know that the master wizard is very close to the "master scientist". By spending all skills in science related skills, means that character is so focused in what he does, that he is pretty useless outside his lab!  It means that the scientist has never left his lab!We cannot expect the scientist to be just as good as spotting the enemy at night, while hidden behind bushes and behind enemy lines...as a trained commando is! The commando has spend years in training so as to "know" what to look for... He's not good at it simply because he doesn't wear glasses!And now comes the argument:"But the wizard is just as an adventurer as the rogue is! He's not enclosed in some study lab! He should be good too!"You don't say!!!!!The start spending skill points on ANOTHER skill than just spellcraft!!!!It's up to you to create the wizard as realistically as you want!!! Don't expect the game to do that for you. And never expect to be as good as the rogue is in spot. That's what HE DOES MOST. What YOU DO MOST is that you spend time with your books so as to understand the arcane!If you feel like you should concentrate on spot, the LEAVE your books...and take another class in the next level...It's very very simple.I don't understand how the Rogue get's all that heat...It's not like it's a broken class or anything....</blockquote>

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