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Is "skilled guy" a good character class?

Vespucci

First Post
Follow-up on the "how many classes" question. Some posters raised 3 classes (warrior, caster, expert) as an alternative. Let's ponder the expert.

In any game that's recognisably D&D, all PCs are adventurers. It can be assumed that they're all quite proficient in many of the routine tasks of their profession. So, should it really take a distinct character class just to be good at things like observation, athletics, exploration, spelunking, etc.?

Taking the other tilt, if you need heaps of levels to get a high skill bonus, how many hit dice did Leonardo have? What was Raphael's Fortitude Save? How high was Shakespeare's BAB?

(I would appreciate TMNT-based answers to those rhetorical questions, so long as you admit to knowing what I meant. ;))
 

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Jimlock

Adventurer
I'd rather take a rogue/thief and play him as an expert,

than make an "expert" class that I can take to play a rogue.

why?

turn the rogue into expert and stay back and watch...

a couple of years after, no one will know what an expert is.

do that with all the classes and a few more years after that,

you won't even realize you're playing D&D...


And while I have no problem with such a simplification (?) in other games,

well with D&D it's different...

Classes and races is what keeps the game what it is.


I understand how this is utterly subjective... after all it's simply how I feel about the game.

I'm not debating anything here...
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Follow-up on the "how many classes" question. Some posters raised 3 classes (warrior, caster, expert) as an alternative. Let's ponder the expert.

In any game that's recognisably D&D, all PCs are adventurers. It can be assumed that they're all quite proficient in many of the routine tasks of their profession. So, should it really take a distinct character class just to be good at things like observation, athletics, exploration, spelunking, etc.?

The answer to the question really depends on what utility skills have in your system.

In stock 3e the tendency is for skills to be primarily passive means of overcoming obstacles as selected by the GM. What is knowledge really good for? For the most part, it's assumed to be good only for learning some clue that the GM thought to put in the situation and assigned a skill and DC to. What is search good for? For the most part, it's assumed to be good only for learning some clue that the GM thought to put in the stiuation and assigned a skill and DC to. If that's all 'skilled guy' does, he doesn't do enough to really justify a role among the heroes. He's a glorified henchmen in that role.

It would be like if under the stock 3e system, spells didn't actually do anything - they didn't actually have a descriptive text - unless the DM mentioned the spell as a solution in the text of the room and described what casting that spell would do. It would be like if Fireball only made a big fire if the DM specifically described something as a possible target of fireball.

Now, if on the other hands skills can be used actively by skill guy to significantly improve his chance regardless of the situation that he finds himself in, then the skill guy might in fact be largely on par with the sword swinger and the spell slinger.

Another thing to consider is whether or not the game master considers the most common challenges faced by heroes to be combat or not. In my game, I typically have more skill checks in a session than attack rolls. In this situation, it can really matter whether or not you have a bit of skill in various areas or whether you are just a big dumb lug whose only at an advantage in a nice flat enclosed arena holding something big and pointy while facing someone similar. If every challenge you face can be simulated by a combat in a large flat enclosed arena, then chances are 'skill guy' is not going to shine very much. What is he going to have to do?

I'll give you some examples:

What if your skill in movement gave you a higher base movement speed?
What if your skill in tactics gave you free actions each turn?
What if your skill in porter allowed you to carry more weight with fewer penalties?
What if you could use your skill in alchemy to brew potions, poisons, and grenades?
What if you could use your skill in planeswalking to blink yourself out of danger?
What if you could use your skill in astrology to cast divinations?
What if you could use your skill in leadership to counteract mind affecting spells?
What if you could use hypnosis to break a charm?
What if you could use heal to actually recover hit points?

And so forth.

Suddenly skill guy is actually useful because he can actually choose to do things. In the edges of D&D there are some wierd cases of actually being able to use a skill meaningfully because a feat lets you use it meaningfully or because there is this class feature that is written up as a skill, but they are a sorta of wierd, usually pretty narrow damage generators, and not terribly well balanced with other skills. It's not that they are bad, at least within the context of the other brokeness available by late 3.5, but they are just sort of tacked on to the system rather than thinking about that tact from the start
 

Vespucci

First Post
The answer to the question really depends on what utility skills have in your system.

In stock 3e the tendency is for skills to be primarily passive means of overcoming obstacles as selected by the GM....If every challenge you face can be simulated by a combat in a large flat enclosed arena, then chances are 'skill guy' is not going to shine very much. What is he going to have to do?
(Change that and)
Suddenly skill guy is actually useful because he can actually choose to do things.

All of this is fairly well considered, though it does read a bit like a set piece. ;) My question doesn't depend on the utility of skills in the system. I'm not asking, "What can skill guy do?" I'm asking, "Why do you need to be 'skill guy' to do such things?"
 

Jimlock

Adventurer
I'm not asking, "What can skill guy do?" I'm asking, "Why do you need to be 'skill guy' to do such things?"

All PCs can train the skills skill guy (rogue) gets. It's just that their worst at it.

Why?

because otherwise you'd be playing superman everytime.

A good-at-everyting-guy...
 

Vespucci

First Post
That sounds like a false dichotomy, Jimlock. :) Are the design choices really "skill guy among others" or "supermen only"? If so, does that mean that Fighting Man, Cleric and Magic User were supermen until Thief turned up?!
 

Jimlock

Adventurer
Then... we can give all some good weapon skills....

(after all those are dangerous times the PCs are living in.!..)

and then some magic to all..

(why can't my PC learn magic? is he stupid?)

Then you go down to one class... and suddenly you've got a party made of:

007
Jack Bauer
Chuck Norris
Jason Bourne


....

...IMHO... the game needs ROLES...

like the good old Mission impossible series....

remember?



....
 
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Celebrim

Legend
All of this is fairly well considered, though it does read a bit like a set piece. ;) My question doesn't depend on the utility of skills in the system. I'm not asking, "What can skill guy do?" I'm asking, "Why do you need to be 'skill guy' to do such things?"

Well obviously you don't need 'skill guy' to do skills, any more than you need 'fighter guy' to do fighting or for that matter 'spell guy' to do spells. It's not like fighters have no skill points or NWP's. There is no reason why 'spell guy' should be completely inable to fight or be totally lacking in skill. He's just relatively lacking in fighting ability and practical skills compared to some others. The point is that being particularly skillful and knowledgable outside of combat is a different area of class specialization than being skilled in combat.

To imagine a simple system

Fighter guy is good at combat and brawny things.
Spell guy is good with spells and academic things.
Skillful guy is good at academic things, brawny things, and practical things.

Skill guy can't be easily built by taking a bit of Fighter Guy and a bit of Spell guy. The result tends to be not someone who is a master of all skills, but rather a student of all skills but a master of none. The skillful guy must truly be a master of all skills if he is not to have the obvious advantages of breaking things or blowing things up. If he is however, he has his own particular niche in problem solving besides breaking stuff or blowing them up, provide his niche let's him impose his will on the environment some what.

The 'Thief' or later 'Rogue' has always been D&D's flagship class in the category of class that gets useful skills, but D&D has traditionally had a hard time making the class relevant. Too often spell guy gets absolute skills that quickly leave the skillful guys utility in the dust, and in 1e fighter guy too easily out distanced the Thief in durability and combat ability.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That sounds like a false dichotomy, Jimlock. :) Are the design choices really "skill guy among others" or "supermen only"? If so, does that mean that Fighting Man, Cleric and Magic User were supermen until Thief turned up?!

I've heard some make pretty much that argument.

The argument goes that the existance of the thief skills implies the total lack of same in the other classes where it had not previously been assumed.

The obvious example is 'climb walls'. With the introduction of the thief, all the other classes were immediately inflicted with a 0% chance of climbing walls by implication where before the thief this would not have been assumed. First edition D&D struggled mightily with this problem that skills had been defined in terms of an absolute chance of success rather than a relative ability to overcome difficulty. The system was such that if the other characters had any chance to climb the wall, it must be assumed that the thief basically could not fail, or if the thief had any reasonable chance of failure then no other character could dare the risk.
 

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