Pathfinder 1E Is Spring Attack overpowered?

[n00bdragon]

To be fair, on the pathfinder SRD the errata'd text of Vital Strike is thus:

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

It very clearly states that you need to use the attack action, so it won't work with Spring Attack. There's even a side box explaining that this is how it works. This is all very well beyond meaning though because the combination would be a far cry from broken. Vital Strike and Spring Attack are both terrible feats you only take because you want to roleplay a certain type of character, not because you want to be an epic invincible killing machine. Combining them together makes for a flavorful combination that plays... a little better? As a DM I'd probably make a house rule to allow it. It's certainly not going to hurt anything. If your DM thinks this is broken slap him. Then slap him again for me.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

IF you aren't doing PFS official play or Official PF Sanctioned play...play how you want and rule how you want with these rules (and by you, I mean whoever is GMing).

Easiest solution.

I'm sure at this point we all know we can houserule anything we want, but the discussion is about RAW.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

To be fair, on the pathfinder SRD the errata'd text of Vital Strike is thus:



It very clearly states that you need to use the attack action, so it won't work with Spring Attack. There's even a side box explaining that this is how it works. This is all very well beyond meaning though because the combination would be a far cry from broken. Vital Strike and Spring Attack are both terrible feats you only take because you want to roleplay a certain type of character, not because you want to be an epic invincible killing machine. Combining them together makes for a flavorful combination that plays... a little better? As a DM I'd probably make a house rule to allow it. It's certainly not going to hurt anything. If your DM thinks this is broken slap him. Then slap him again for me.

I disagree about Spring Attack being a bad feat. This feat in the hands of classes like fighter, rogue, and magus is deadly.

 

[n00bdragon]

I disagree about Spring Attack being a bad feat. This feat in the hands of classes like fighter, rogue, and magus is deadly.

You mean I can spend three of my precious feats so that I can give up full attacking for just one attack? "Deadly" is not a term I would consider appropriate here. As I said before, as a flavor thing it's alright but if you actually want something dead you're gimping yourself enough just by playing something like a rogue or a fighter without losing your full attack as well.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

You mean I can spend three of my precious feats so that I can give up full attacking for just one attack? "Deadly" is not a term I would consider appropriate here. As I said before, as a flavor thing it's alright but if you actually want something dead you're gimping yourself enough just by playing something like a rogue or a fighter without losing your full attack as well.

Against creatures with improved grab, which there are many of, this is a great feat to have. Also, it makes for fantastic hit and run tactics that work great paired with other feats. If you know how to make the right builds the feat "is" deadly.

 

[n00bdragon]

Against creatures with improved grab, which there are many of, this is a great feat to have. Also, it makes for fantastic hit and run tactics that work great paired with other feats. If you know how to make the right builds the feat "is" deadly.

Disregard for a moment that there is no such thing as the Improved Grab feat in Pathfinder, this makes zero difference as if something particularly cared to grapple you they can still walk up to you and initiate grapple. Hit-and-Run tactics don't really do much outside of incredibly contrived situations. The fact remains that using the feat nullifies your only redeeming feature, the ability to make multiple attacks. Really, in exchange for losing all your attacks you have to explain what you really gain from running away from your target:
- You can't consistently get far enough away that he can't catch you unless you are more than 4x faster than he is
- Your attack is just a basic attack action, so you can't apply any combat maneuvers or cool effects
- If you're just 5ft away he can five-foot-step and full attack you, if you're farther than that he can charge, gaining all the bonuses inherent in that plus he keeps a move action to play with
- You remove your ability to threaten his movement, allowing him to simply ignore you and harass more valuable party members

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Disregard for a moment that there is no such thing as the Improved Grab feat in Pathfinder, this makes zero difference as if something particularly cared to grapple you they can still walk up to you and initiate grapple. Hit-and-Run tactics don't really do much outside of incredibly contrived situations. The fact remains that using the feat nullifies your only redeeming feature, the ability to make multiple attacks. Really, in exchange for losing all your attacks you have to explain what you really gain from running away from your target:
- You can't consistently get far enough away that he can't catch you unless you are more than 4x faster than he is
- Your attack is just a basic attack action, so you can't apply any combat maneuvers or cool effects
- If you're just 5ft away he can five-foot-step and full attack you, if you're farther than that he can charge, gaining all the bonuses inherent in that plus he keeps a move action to play with
- You remove your ability to threaten his movement, allowing him to simply ignore you and harass more valuable party members

All you have to do is work on upping your speed and you will have room to move in, attack, and move out while the opponent will most likely need to use a charge action to reach you will then in turn negate that grapple attempt. The point of Spring Attack is to keep opponents on the move so they will continue to use up their movement trying to get to you. I play a "lot" of Pathfinder.

 

[n00bdragon]

All you have to do is work on upping your speed and you will have room to move in, attack, and move out while the opponent will most likely need to use a charge action to reach you will then in turn negate that grapple attempt. The point of Spring Attack is to keep opponents on the move so they will continue to use up their movement trying to get to you. I play a "lot" of Pathfinder.

So you admit the entire and only point or value in Spring Attack is force your opponents to get bonuses from charging you?

... 'kay

 

[billd91]

Vital Strike and Spring Attack are both terrible feats you only take because you want to roleplay a certain type of character, not because you want to be an epic invincible killing machine.

Vital strike actually is a good feat for certain characters. We have one PC in our PF game with a variety of valuable move action-based powers and a greatsword. Vital strike works quite well for him because he doesn't get many rounds without using a move action.

 

[Tharkon]

So you admit the entire and only point or value in Spring Attack is force your opponents to get bonuses from charging you?

... 'kay

Not every enemy has pounce. And other than that, charge gives as much a penalty as a bonus.

But yes neither feat is really powerful. The only useful application of vital strike is to replace a charge if you happened to be within distance, or needed your move action for something. Spring attack only really works if you can get scenery involved (spider climb, cover, a tank to hide behind), or if you have to fight in a small corridor where normally only one pc can be in the front line.