Is the U.S. behind in the sciences?

[reanjr]

I don't think so, and I try to ignore most of the school horror stories I hear as usual scare tactics from the media. I'm not in the field, though, so I don't know what's true and what's false. I do know two teachers personally (one at a public, one at a private school) and they both lament the quality of education. Neither one is a science teacher, though, so I'm unsure how they view the general quality of science education.

I think that we could do a lot better in instilling an appreciation for science and scientists in our children. Science has taken a real beating as far as public image goes and that needs to be changed.

I've read single science books that cover more science than 12 years of American public education. I KNOW our science education is poor, at least at the secondary level. Whether this causes us as a nation to fall behind in the real world, I can't tell for sure. There are always those who will go above and beyond their education and those people are the ones likely to perform major breakthroughs.

As to the second part, what we need is another World War. That'll fix our science education and appreciation lag real quick.

 

[drothgery]

As an example - one would expect the US to lead ahead of any particular European nation. However, if you look at the European Union as a whole - they have a higher population, higher gross domestic product, and so on. You'd expect the US to be behind the EU.

... and you'd be wrong, but you'd only expect that if you're making a naive estimate. The EU has a 55% larger population, but less than a 1% larger GDP, and about 2/3rds the per capita GDP; EU v. NAFTA and the EU's got roughly a 5% larger population, 15% smaller economy, and 80% of the per capita GDP (Mexico's slighltly poorer than eastern European EU countries, and has more people than the ex-east-block part of the EU; Canada's roughly on par with the richest western European EU countries, and is a bit less populous than Spain or Poland).

 

[Fenris]

I think one area where the U.S. could lag behind is in embryonic stem cell research. We place a great amount of concern over the cloning and use of embryonic stem cells - cells which will be destroyed regardless, and could be used to cure diabetes, alzheimers, and other diseases. Japan, and Europe have no such qualms, so while we bicker over politics in these areas, it seems likely that the next great advancements here could come from other countries.

Yeah other countries like the Free State of California
Part of the passing of the recent ballot initiative here was to do exactly that, NOT fall behind other countries or even other regions of this country. Just as the Silicon Valley dominated tech development, so the thought goes, that Califonia can, by staking an early claim become the stem cell leader.

But as a scientist, I will say one thing. You tend to get more..... specialization in other countries. In many other countries, there are a few very well funded areas of expertise. Whether you look within disciplines or across them, some countries put the bulk of their research funds in very specific areas. And in those areas they are very good. But nobody matches the US in terms of breadth. We have out fingers in everybody's pudding (some not even our own

But science is more and more international these days, with far more international collaborations to advance science. The game of "scientist red rover" that got played at the end of WWII is a thing of the past. My collegue's research that aids me may come from Michigan or Spain. Good science takes precedent.

 

[Conaill]

Yes, science education in the US is pretty bad compared to other developed countries. No, the US is not lagging behind in science.

Huh?

The simple explanation is that there has been a huge brain drain of the world's best and brightests towards the US, partly because the US does spend an awful lot of money on research. In that particular aspect, the US really is the "land of opportunity".

One worrying trend is that this influx of foreign talent is very rapidly decreasing, mainly because of all the new visa regulations and hassles the US is imposing on foreign students and researchers.

One other interesting observation... the US is actually lagging behind on other ares of the world in certain technologies, due to... a lack of regulation! For example, europe and asia have been ahead in cell phone technology for years because they long ago decided to standardize their cell phone systems, whereas the US still has 3-4 competing systems each requiring their own trasmission towers.

 

[Daalbar]

I think that by any objective measure, the US lags behind most countries in the EU rather badly when it comes to overall science and math education at the primary and secondary school levels. Canada, where I was educated, may have been somewhat better, but not too much. I remember my father, who was educated in the former Yugoslavia in the early 50's being amazed that I was only starting to do Calculus in high school... he's had it in the equivalent of grades 6 and 7 and I wouldn't be surprised if many of you with immigrant parents knew of something similar (though to be fair, many of his peers at that time never went too far beyond that level of education).

The average level of science literacy in North America is poor. Don't mistake the achievements of the top 10-15% of students for overall awareness/ability.

The saving grace of the US is and has been not only the quality of the very best post-secondary institutions that can be found here, but also the quality and number of even what might be considered "average" post-secondary institutions. They take that top 10-15% and provide some of the best opportunities in the sciences -- enough so that many of the best and brightest are also drawn from oversees. Graduate students are frequently from foreign nations and many end up staying, starting technical businesses, becoming doctors, researchers or professors. Where would many of the computer-related startups in California be if not for motivated foreign students? Non-existent... But those foreign students got that initial science and math training in their home countries.

I am a recent PhD in ecology and evolutionary biology and grew up in Toronto, Canada. I cringe every time I hear yet another case of a county somewhere in Georgia or West Virginia putting stickers on Biology textbooks or insisting on the teaching of "intelligent design" alongside evolution. This sort of thing won't overtly interfere with the learning of chemistry or mathematics but it seems to me that it undermines the understanding of what scientific principles are... the very process of what it means to "do" science and diminishes a respect for science as "just another version of reality" that is no more relevant than any other, rather than as the only objective method we have of measuring the physical universe.

I've been a TA for labs in Introductory Biology on a couple of occasions and never fail to be surprised at the lack of scientific literacy among the students... subsequent higher-level classes are always a vast improvement -- but only because those who pursue further studies in biology are the ones who are already knowlegable and eager (and are at least somewhat gifted and are probably the sort who already used to watch the Science Channel for fun on their own time when they were in high school).

 

[Umbran]

The average level of science literacy in North America is poor. Don't mistake the achievements of the top 10-15% of students for overall awareness/ability.

This is part of what I mean by askign what "lagging behind" means. What's more important - that the general public have a low level of knowledge, or that there's much advancement on the high end?

 

[Darkness]

By the way, I hope this thread can stay friendly* and non-political.

Should someone fail to do so, please don't respond to the post and use the report post button. Thanks.

(*Please keep comments like "making a naive estimate" and "we need another World War," no matter the intent, to yourself.)

 

[Rel]

I think that by any objective measure, the US lags behind most countries in the EU rather badly when it comes to overall science and math education at the primary and secondary school levels.

I think you're probably right about this and I think it is because we've saddled ourselves with a "one size fits all" public education system.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that many (if not most) European countries tended to try and start directing students toward a likely career path at a relatively early age (in the 12-14 range). Those who wanted (and were suited) to move into technical trades were directed into schools that would teach them those skills while those who wished to pursue "white collar" jobs were sent in another direction and those interested in the sciences were sent in yet another. The concentration of sciences and math in the lower grades were partially in there as a determinant for which students had a preference and aptitude for those fields.

Here in the US we have this concept of "no child left behind" that is intended to insure that they don't ignore kids who perform poorly in any subject. That's a laudable goal but I think it has had an effect of "dumbing down" our educational system and lowering the bar to see to it that fewer kids are "left behind" by virtue of making it easy to keep up with the work that is presented.

To use a metaphor, if you've got a group of people who are running from point A to point B and one of their goals is to make sure that nobody is left behind then they must do one of two things. They either assign an individual to help drag along each other individual who starts to lag or they have the whole group move slower so that fewer can be defined as "falling behind". To extend the metaphor to Europe (and again, this understanding was from years ago when I took French and our teacher was telling us about the educational systems of Europe) they seem to have adopted the attitude of, "Not everybody can get from A to B at the same speed. In fact, not everybody can get to B at all. That's no reason to slow the others down in their progress."

I'll not comment further on the political attitudes this has spawned in me regarding public schools in the US. But suffice it to say that I think the current system is deeply flawed.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Part of the problem with US science and math education is the way it is taught. The memorization of facts and algorithms tends to be the norm for teaching science and math. Many times this is a reaction to standardized testing used to measure the effectiveness of the schools. Teach to the test. It may work OK for areas like language arts and social studies, but in math and science to really excel people need to have a understanding of the methods and concepts, not just the facts. They need to learn how to apply the knowledge in situations where the known facts do not yet exist. There are progams out there that try and achieve this goal, and it is my understanding that they seem to be effective, but they are more difficult to measure with standardized tests, they need more training to be able to teach, and they often find resistance from parents, teachers, administrators, politicians etc. who don't like things that are new and more difficult for them to understand.

Outside of the education system, I do not think the US lags behind, I think we are a leader, but we could do more and be more.

 

[d20fool]

Science and Math in US

I'm a teacher of 5th grade students, in my 5th year, and the President of our local NEA chapter. I keep my ear to the ground about what is happening on the scence internationally.

It is hard to draw comparisions, because there is NO standization among tests for either countries or even states. The standard students are judged by differ from nation to nation. Experts try to reconcile these differences, but it makes it impossible to make a simple comparison. Having said that, here are some of my impressions.

America is behind in science and math. Science education suffers from poor representation in the elementary levels (ironically, when students like science the most) and many schools have low science requirements to get a diploma. Further, America suffers like no other country from religious agenda. Although attempts to force religious agenda in the classroom almost universally fail, schools often remove ANYTHING that smacks of evolution, fossil record, geologic time scale, and anthropology as a result. I teach science to two classes, and I tread very carefully through these topics; although I don't avoid them. Our district has NO evolution curriculum that I am aware of.

When it comes to math, many countries emphasize it more than we do. Americans take the attitude that math is not necessary, which is unfortunate. Other countries do tend to focus on math in the abstract, the way most of us are taught in school. This is perhaps not the best way. "New" methods (used for decades in some countries) emphasize the application of math in everyday life. I think these programs will meet with great success if allowed to flourish, but many are mistrustful because they think there's only one way to do double-digit additiono or long subtraction, for example.

America is AHEAD in literacy, contrary to popular belief. We start students reading long before other countries even start and offer formal training. In Russia, parents teach their children to read (which means some have serious trouble) and in Europe many countries don't start until seven or so.

Japan, famous for academic rigor, does have problems. Although students are followed very carefully, Japan is just becoming aware that some students have learning disabilities. Japan's top students shine, but they have many failures.

I ALL respects, New Zealand and Australia are KICKING OUR ACADEMIC @$$. They have an aggressive, student-centered style of education that they have been pursuing for over 30 years and they do an excellent job. Their minorities benefit more than any other country's does.

Just my impressions,

John "d20fool" McCarty