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D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
That is indeed, an atypical definition. Placing restrictions on what a character can do is dissociative? So Vancian magic systems are dissociative? Or are they merely in violation of this central tenet in a different way?

Neither, Vancian magic isn't dissociative because magic isn't dissociative - magic is associated because it necessarily has an in-character element to it.

Likewise, restrictions are not themselves dissociative; the dissociation comes when there's no in-game reason for those restrictions to exist.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
That is indeed, an atypical definition. Placing restrictions on what a character can do is dissociative? So Vancian magic systems are dissociative? Or are they merely in violation of this central tenet in a different way?
Magic can do whatever it wants because magic. Fighters are stuck with "real-world" physics, except for the ability to take multiple hits with an axe or fall off a cliff with no actual impediment to their ability.

Come on, now, we all know how this song-and-dance go. :)
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Where there. I remember it seemed like a new thing in 3e. Then again, I skipped C&T. Maybe it was in there. I've heard a lot of 3e-isms were.

In any case 'just as good' is hard to quantify across systems. 2e (pre-C&T, say) and 4e would both have used some sort of improvised mechanic to trip, plus 4e had powers that knocked prone. 3e had very specific rules on tripping and being better at tripping (and they led to some rather outre builds that did some rather silly things in combat). You could tell that a character with Improved Trip in 3e or a power that made targets prone in 4e was 'better' at tripping than one without, but across game? Is the 3e fighter better because he can Trip every attack of every round? Is the 4e character better because he can knock a flying dragon prone?

That is indeed, an atypical definition. Placing restrictions on what a character can do is dissociative? So Vancian magic systems are dissociative? Or are they merely in violation of this central tenet in a different way?

From memory, specific weapons allowed the wielder a trip chance, you could trip while wrestling in the DMG (it was a random outcome). The complete Fighter's Guide gave rules to improve Wrestling, trip directly (that's the one I was thinking of), and for martial arts that could also end up with a trip. I think a called shot could also be used as a trip technique but that required some adjudication.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Magic can do whatever it wants because magic. Fighters are stuck with "real-world" physics, except for the ability to take multiple hits with an axe or fall off a cliff with no actual impediment to their ability.

Fighters are not stuck with "real world" anything - D&D has never tried to model reality as a perfect simulation. Rather, fighters are under no particular restriction on why they can't keep fighting, except when they try to do something once and then suddenly can't do it again (very well).

Now, keep dancing!
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Magic can do whatever it wants because magic. Fighters are stuck with "real-world" physics, except for the ability to take multiple hits with an axe or fall off a cliff with no actual impediment to their ability.

Come on, now, we all know how this song-and-dance go. :)

You've just described a bad magic system. A good magic system has thought put into its framework such it can't do anything and what it can do becomes reasonably intuitive once you understand the framework.
 


I heard about a guy who said the word "dissociative" in a 4e bar. Once.

Get out while you can, man. :)

That's why I carry a high-voltage, nuclear-powered cattle prod with me. If they try to bar brawl, I just turn the hose on them, hold down the power button on the cattle prod, and stick the tip of the prod into the stream of water. Instant area-effect taser.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Fighters are not stuck with "real world" anything - D&D has never tried to model reality as a perfect simulation. Rather, fighters are under no particular restriction on why they can't keep fighting, except when they try to do something once and then suddenly can't do it again (very well).
Spinning Hurricane Slash is magic.

So is friendship.

Now, keep dancing!
Aye aye!
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
That's why I carry a high-voltage, nuclear-powered cattle prod with me. If they try to bar brawl, I just turn the hose on them, hold down the power button on the cattle prod, and stick the tip of the prod into the stream of water. Instant area-effect taser.
Hmm. Sounds like an encounter power to me.
 

Lalato

Explorer
That's why I carry a high-voltage, nuclear-powered cattle prod with me. If they try to bar brawl, I just turn the hose on them, hold down the power button on the cattle prod, and stick the tip of the prod into the stream of water. Instant area-effect taser.

Too bad you can only do that once per encounter. Also, it hits "creatures" so you might get a few allies in the spray. Well, maybe that's not so bad after all. My daily power told you that you don't like them anyway.
 



Too bad you can only do that once per encounter. Also, it hits "creatures" so you might get a few allies in the spray. Well, maybe that's not so bad after all. My daily power told you that you don't like them anyway.

Eh. If they're still in front of me when I get the hose out, they deserve it.
 


keterys

First Post
I have to admit, all of the malice pointed out martial classes trying to do anything too "unrealistic" makes me realize, in hindsight, the genius of Earthdawn's "everyone is magic".

Cause yeah, a warrior who calls up elemental forces to sheathe his skin in rock to shrug off blows, make tremendous leaps by riding the wind, etc lets you do all that crazy action from movies without worrying about the simulation-y problems.
 


TwoSix

Unserious gamer
I have to admit, all of the malice pointed out martial classes trying to do anything too "unrealistic" makes me realize, in hindsight, the genius of Earthdawn's "everyone is magic".

Cause yeah, a warrior who calls up elemental forces to sheathe his skin in rock to shrug off blows, make tremendous leaps by riding the wind, etc lets you do all that crazy action from movies without worrying about the simulation-y problems.
4e works great once you realize "martial" means Jedi.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Too bad you can only do that once per encounter. Also, it hits "creatures" so you might get a few allies in the spray. Well, maybe that's not so bad after all. My daily power told you that you don't like them anyway.

It nuclear-powered -- no recharge time! It is an at-will zap stick!
 

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