Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Feats, prestige classes, anything? I know that there are ways to use bardic abilities against undead and plants, at least, but that's different. Has anything similar been made for enchantment spells?
Is there any way for enchantment spells to affect undead and such?
- Thread starter Terath Ninir
- Start date
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
I might have to do that sort of thing, but it seems inelegant.
It doesn't seem like even third party companies have done anything like this...
It doesn't seem like even third party companies have done anything like this...
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
I don't buy that for a minute. I don't see how influencing and/or controlling minds has anything to do with life or death. I'd think it would be a darn sight easier to affect the mind of, say, a vampire, than of something alien like an otyugh.Thanee said:
Arkhandus
First Post
Vampires don't have working brains, though. A vampire's flesh and brains are dead meat, moved like puppet limbs through the negative energy that serves as the only connection between the body and soul in that undead state; think of the negative energy as the puppet's strings, and the soul as the puppet master or the handle part that connects the strings. Their minds work purely from their spirit, not involving any fleshy parts to link their mind to the physical world and restrict it through physical/physiological means. Enchantments probably utilize that biological component; magically interfere with this part of the brain, or these nerves, and you get such-and-such effect.
Without a physical component linked to the immaterial mind of the vampire, the enchantments have no direct way to interact with the mind; to do so would require interacting with the soul itself, which is the province of high-level spells like Finger of Death; lower-level spells can only seem to interact with the soul indirectly, through channeling negative or positive energy to bombard or restrain the spirit. If enchantments were to be made that could affect undead, they'd likely be 4-5 spell levels higher than any equivalent enchantments for living creatures. I.E. Charm Undead might be a 5th or 6th-level enchantment, probably only available through expensive spell research; Hold Undead and Undead Suggestion may be 7th or 8th-level enchantments; Undead Geas or Dominate Undead would probably be impossible to create, or simply epic-level.
Part of what balances out the immense utility and versatility of Enchantments and Illusions is that they're ineffective against a few kinds of monsters, i.e. constructs, undead, oozes, vermin, and such. Necromancy covers a bit of that ground with undead only, as does clerical turning/rebuking, and through different means (controlling or adjusting the movement, intensity, and such of the negative energy that animates the undead).
Without a physical component linked to the immaterial mind of the vampire, the enchantments have no direct way to interact with the mind; to do so would require interacting with the soul itself, which is the province of high-level spells like Finger of Death; lower-level spells can only seem to interact with the soul indirectly, through channeling negative or positive energy to bombard or restrain the spirit. If enchantments were to be made that could affect undead, they'd likely be 4-5 spell levels higher than any equivalent enchantments for living creatures. I.E. Charm Undead might be a 5th or 6th-level enchantment, probably only available through expensive spell research; Hold Undead and Undead Suggestion may be 7th or 8th-level enchantments; Undead Geas or Dominate Undead would probably be impossible to create, or simply epic-level.
Part of what balances out the immense utility and versatility of Enchantments and Illusions is that they're ineffective against a few kinds of monsters, i.e. constructs, undead, oozes, vermin, and such. Necromancy covers a bit of that ground with undead only, as does clerical turning/rebuking, and through different means (controlling or adjusting the movement, intensity, and such of the negative energy that animates the undead).
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Arkhandus, I get your reasoning. I just don't *buy* it. 
Your analysis of the rules is good; I just don't buy the official line of reasoning.
Also, a very important point is that, in your "average" campaign, it's not a few monsters. About 50% of the monsters in an "average" adventure are unaffected by enchantments -- especially undead.
The only reason enchantment spells don't affect undead, constructs, plants, and mindless creatures is game balance. (In my very unhumble opinion.) Therefor, it seems reasonable that if you sacrifice something (like a feat, or a level of spellcasting ability) you should be able to affect one of those categories of critters, like the vampire. Since it seem to me that that would be a reasonable tradeoff, I find myself surprised that (apparently) no one has put out such a variant.
Your analysis of the rules is good; I just don't buy the official line of reasoning.Also, a very important point is that, in your "average" campaign, it's not a few monsters. About 50% of the monsters in an "average" adventure are unaffected by enchantments -- especially undead.
The only reason enchantment spells don't affect undead, constructs, plants, and mindless creatures is game balance. (In my very unhumble opinion.) Therefor, it seems reasonable that if you sacrifice something (like a feat, or a level of spellcasting ability) you should be able to affect one of those categories of critters, like the vampire. Since it seem to me that that would be a reasonable tradeoff, I find myself surprised that (apparently) no one has put out such a variant.
Thanee
First Post
I don't even think it's game balance, since it wouldn't really be necessary, the spells are balanced already, no need to reduce the available targets from a pure balance POV.
I think it's because of the idea behind the spells and the schools of magic.
Anyways, since there are feats/spells, which allow sneak attacks against constructs and undead and similar silliness, I don't see why one could not make up such a thing, it's about the same level to me. I just don't know of any official one.
Bye
Thanee
I think it's because of the idea behind the spells and the schools of magic.
Anyways, since there are feats/spells, which allow sneak attacks against constructs and undead and similar silliness, I don't see why one could not make up such a thing, it's about the same level to me. I just don't know of any official one.
Bye
Thanee
Corwyn_kop
Explorer
I know it doesnt directly answer your question but the Everquest pnp rpg allows enchanters to use some of their spells on undead via a feat. In this case the feat is taught by a particular organization and only affects one type of enchantment spell.
If nothing else, a feat or feat chain seems like a good way to solve the problem if house ruleing is an option.
Other than that Im not aware of anything else that would allow this but do keep us posted if you should stumble across anything.
Good Luck,
Corwyn
If nothing else, a feat or feat chain seems like a good way to solve the problem if house ruleing is an option.
Other than that Im not aware of anything else that would allow this but do keep us posted if you should stumble across anything.
Good Luck,
Corwyn
