Is this a reasonable 2nd to 3rd edition extrapolation/translation?

[Edena_of_Neith]

In 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons, the Arcane Age Setting set the benchmark for casting high level spells.
In the Arcane Age Setting, one had to be 20th level to cast 10th level spells.
One had to be 35th level to cast 11th level spells.
One had to be 40th level to cast 12th level spells.

A look at 11th level magic shows that one needed to be 15 levels higher to cast such spells than the next spell level down, 10th level.
Using that as an extrapolation to the (apparently) graduated spell progression of 3rd edition, it could be surmised that a graduated progression would require a 50th level caster for 12th level spells, a 65th level caster for 13th level spells, an 80th level caster for 14th level spells, and a 95th level caster for 15th level spells.
Again, this assumes a graduated approach like that of 3rd edition.

Karsus's Avatar, the 12th level spell from Netheril, does not fit into this graduated system at all. There is no way whatsoever to duplicate Karsus's Avatar in 3rd edition.
For the sake of translation, I will drop the 40th level 12th level requirement from the Arcane Age system, along with that interpretation of 12th level spells.

Thus, we have a system of:

20th level is required to cast 10th level spells
35th level is required to cast 11th level spells
50th level is required to cast 12th level spells
65th level is required to cast 13rd level spells
80th level is required to cast 14th level spells
95th level is required to cast 15th level spells

And this assumes a graduated increase in spell power, from 10th to 11th level, from 11th to 12th level, from 12th to 13rd level, etc.


- - -

In 3rd edition, according to the Epic Level Handbook, Epic Spells are 10th level spells.

However, all Epic Spells are not created equal.

Epic Spells all have DCs.
The higher the DC, the more difficult to cast the spell.
The higher the DC, the more powerful the spell - or, the more versatile, the fewer the drawbacks, and all the other things that would signify greater comparative level according to the standard system of 1st through 9th level spells.

Thus, the higher the Epic Spell DC, the higher the spell's effective level.

- - -

In 3rd edition, all Epic Spells are 10th level.

But what level would they be, if they were 2nd edition spells, using the system created above?

Here is my translation:

A 3rd edition wizard of 35th level (straight wizard) could have 38 ranks in Spellcraft.
Since it is his or her Spellcraft that is rolled against the Epic Spell DC, he or she has a bonus of 38 to the roll.

In addition, he or she rolls a d20.
The range is 1 to 20 for this roll.
He or she has a 50/50 chance of rolling an 11 or higher.

38 + 11 = 49.

Thus, a 3rd edition wizard of 35th level has a 50/50 chance of matching the roll of 49 needed to cast an Epic Spell of DC 49.

Therefore, I conclude that any Epic Spell with a DC of 49 or higher is an 11th level spell.
The basis is simple: a mage of 35th level (ala the 2nd edition system way above) has a 50/50 chance of casting this spell. A mage above 35th level has a better than 50/50 chance, and a mage below 35th level has a worse than 50/50 chance.
This assumes the wizard took as many ranks in spellcraft as possible, which is a semi-reasonable conclusion for a single-classed wizard.

Thus, Epic Spells with a DC of 10 to 48 are 10th level spells, in 2nd edition.

Epic Spells with a DC of 49 to 63 are 11th level spells.
Epic Spells with a DC of 64 to 78 are 12th level spells.
Epic Spells with a DC of 79 to 93 are 13th level spells.
Epic Spells with a DC of 94 to 108 are 14th level spells.
Epic Spells with a DC of 109 to 123 are 15th level spells.
Etc.

Is this a reasonable translation?

I am attempting this translation for the simple sake of being able to say:

Not all 3rd edition Epic Spells are created equal.
For in 2nd edition, given the translation, this (particular) Epic Spell would have been X level.
X level, based on a reasonable extrapolation from the 2nd edition Arcane Age Setting.

However, is this a reasonable extrapolation or translation?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I could translate based on the idea that a mage must automatically be able to cast the Epic Spell in question.

In that case, a 3rd edition mage of 35th level with 38 ranks in Spellcraft would have his or her + 38 to the d20 roll, and the 50/50 chance would fall at 49, as usual.

However, if the mage rolled a 1, that would make for a total roll of 39.

Thus, it is possible to conclude that Epic Spells of 11th level are those with a DC of 39 or higher (instead of 49 or higher as per the 50/50 interpretation above.)

In this system:

10th level spells (2nd edition equivalent only) are those Epic Spells with a DC of 10 to 38.

Epic Spells with a DC of 39 to 53 are 11th level.
Epic Spells with a DC of 54 to 68 are 12th level.
Epic Spells with a DC of 69 to 83 are 13th level.
Epic Spells with a DC of 84 to 98 are 14th level.
Epic Spells with a DC of 99 to 113 are 15th level.
Etc.

 

[Blacksad]

Simply, no it's not a reasonable translation, the arcane age rules were here to extend the power of mages in a times in the forgotten realms, and they just extended the cap, IMO it wasn't meant to be extended (the only level 12 spell allow you to become a god, a level 10 spell allowed to lift a mountain).

In the arcane age a level 40 arcanist used a system similar to psion, and were able to throw 450 level of spell, with the maximun level at 12, so they could launch several level of 12, 11 or 10 level spell, while a level 40 wizards can only launch 4 level 10 spell.

If you want a parallel with 2nd edition, you can use the true dweomer from high level campaign, it is the same thing as the current 10 level spell.

If you want to extrapolate the level of the spell, I think you should work with the feat that give you extended slot. i.e. the first time you take it, it gives you a level10 spell slot and one of every other lower level, then a level 11 slot, etc...

You then just have to compare the max damage you can get from such a spell slot VS the max damge you can get from a given DC (basicaly reproducing the spell).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Very true. The Arcanists of Netheril used a spell point system, which obviously does not translate.
I dropped the spell point system altogether in the translation.

It is quite true about the 10th level spells.
Proctiv's Move Mountain did just that, and thus the Floating Enclaves came into being. I suppose an Epic Spell would have to have quite a high DC to do that.

I am listening.
I welcome anyone's opinion on this matter.

It is a simple matter of asking the question: what would this spell have been in 2nd edition, or what would the equivalent have been?

I suppose you could say all Epic Level spells are simply 10th or 11th level spells ala 2nd edition, or even just say they are all 10th level spells in 2nd edition.
It certainly avoids a lot of confusion.

I am simply looking for alternate answers to that easy answer.
After all, Tolodine's Killing Wind, 10th level, was not the equivalent of Mavin's Worldweave, 11th level, in 2nd edition.
And those Epic Spells in the ELH are not all created equal, either.

 

[Blacksad]

It is a simple matter of asking the question: what would this spell have been in 2nd edition, or what would the equivalent have been?

I think that there is only 3 high level spell system in 2nd edition:

-the Netheril spell system with 10th, 11th and 12th level spell

-the cormanthyr high magic of the elves

-the true dweomer from the DM's option book

Well, if you want the equivalent in arcane age terminology, given the few number of spell, you can try to reproduce the spell in 3rd edition with the DC system, it will give you the max DC for level 10 spell, and the max DC for level 11 spell, you can also estimate the DC of a level 9 spell, and if it seems to follow a pattern you might extrapolate from that.

For the high magic, you can draw an equivalent by determining the DC of Solitude, Complement, and Myriad, considering them level 10, 11 and 12 respectively, and see if it follow a pattern and extrapolate for that.

But given that the 3rd edition high level spell use the exact same sytem as 2nd edition true dweomer, I think that the simpliest thing is to equal a DC with a true dweomer difficulty.

NB: for those of you who do not understand of what we speak, the Netheril and Cormanthyr campaign setting are available for free on wizards website:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x