Is this DM bs or is it not?
- Thread starter -Ekimus-
- Start date
Some guy from Ohio
First Post
But that is exactly what SonOfLilith said it was.
If this was an encounter off of a random table, then the DM went soft. The character should have been stripped of gear and flesh. Perhaps, he thought he was doing the player a favor by not killing the character. But what do I know? I'm just a guy from Ohio.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
There seems to be a problem on both sides, I think.
On the players' side, I think you may have just gotten an object lesson on why one PC should NEVER travel alone with tens of thousands of GP worth of loot. It's like painting a giant target on your chest, and no PC besides Edena's can stand up to multiple opponents with varied skills and good tactics.
Furthermore, if you're 13th level, surely you have access to scrying magics and other divinations? Figure out where those harpy suckers are, and go after them.
On the DM's side, he needs to be very careful how he runs the game. If the players don't trust that the DM has a good plot reason for having those harpies there, then he needs to take a look at why they don't trust him. Maybe he needs to make his plots hold together better.
As for removing items from the players, that's another thing to be careful about. Personally, I think it's totally justified in some cases, but you'll find that your players are a lot happier about it if the removal of items is a major plot point, not something that feels like a random encounter. Realistic or not, it's no fun to be suckerpunched.
Daniel
On the players' side, I think you may have just gotten an object lesson on why one PC should NEVER travel alone with tens of thousands of GP worth of loot. It's like painting a giant target on your chest, and no PC besides Edena's can stand up to multiple opponents with varied skills and good tactics.
Furthermore, if you're 13th level, surely you have access to scrying magics and other divinations? Figure out where those harpy suckers are, and go after them.
On the DM's side, he needs to be very careful how he runs the game. If the players don't trust that the DM has a good plot reason for having those harpies there, then he needs to take a look at why they don't trust him. Maybe he needs to make his plots hold together better.
As for removing items from the players, that's another thing to be careful about. Personally, I think it's totally justified in some cases, but you'll find that your players are a lot happier about it if the removal of items is a major plot point, not something that feels like a random encounter. Realistic or not, it's no fun to be suckerpunched.
Daniel
Bran Blackbyrd
Explorer
Okay, some of you seem to be missing the point here.
To the people saying that the DM was soft on the player by letting the barbarian live; NO.
You can't seem to grasp the fact that this was not a legit encounter, it was blatant theft. The harpies were not there because of a random encounter, or because the DM knew the PCs would be flying or any garbage like that.
The harpy attack was the DM's spur of the moment method of stealing the PC's equipment. There was no danger of the PC dying, because the DM only wanted to take his possessions. Why? Because the player had already already stated his intent to sell the bulk of his stuff at the next convenient location.
You can't approach this situation as if it were a normal encounter and say that the PC was lucky he didn't die, blah blah blah, and pretend that the player was at fault, because it was the DM's artificial device thought up for the express purpose of screwing that player out of whatever profit he'd have made in the next town.
To the people saying that the harpies might not have been regular harpies and in light of that, they could behave in any manner the DM wanted. NO AGAIN.
This line of thinking only applies if it was a real encounter, but it wasn't, it was just the DM preventing the player from selling his items by abusing his place as the moderator. How do we know this was his aim? Because of his history of munchkinism and the fact that this DM has two sets of rules, one for himself, and one for the players.
If the players had all gotten robbed because they split up and brigands jumped them, fine. If the harpies were half-fiends and that's why they took his stuff, fine. The DM was generous in not killing them. I'd say it was the DM's decision.
But when you take into account the DM's penchant for munchkinism and the fact that the PC that got swarmed was the one that had said he was going to pawn all of his stuff...
Too suspicious to be coincidence. If the DM was uncomfortable about the amount of items the group had, he should have been honest and resolved it without behaving like a thug. But then, the only player who is now without his hard-won items is (say it with me now), the guy who made it known ahead of time that he wanted to sell them.
While we're at it, how often would every PC in the party be able to fly? Should the barbarian have just sat on his Wings of Flying and not used them at all? Of course if he uses them he'd be separated from the group.
If all the PCs in their group had methods of flight and they posted about their awesome mid-air victory over a flock of harpies some of you would probably accuse them of being munchkins.
I guess some people just can't win.
(Well not when the DM wants to "win" anyway...)
To the people saying that the DM was soft on the player by letting the barbarian live; NO.
You can't seem to grasp the fact that this was not a legit encounter, it was blatant theft. The harpies were not there because of a random encounter, or because the DM knew the PCs would be flying or any garbage like that.
The harpy attack was the DM's spur of the moment method of stealing the PC's equipment. There was no danger of the PC dying, because the DM only wanted to take his possessions. Why? Because the player had already already stated his intent to sell the bulk of his stuff at the next convenient location.
You can't approach this situation as if it were a normal encounter and say that the PC was lucky he didn't die, blah blah blah, and pretend that the player was at fault, because it was the DM's artificial device thought up for the express purpose of screwing that player out of whatever profit he'd have made in the next town.
To the people saying that the harpies might not have been regular harpies and in light of that, they could behave in any manner the DM wanted. NO AGAIN.
This line of thinking only applies if it was a real encounter, but it wasn't, it was just the DM preventing the player from selling his items by abusing his place as the moderator. How do we know this was his aim? Because of his history of munchkinism and the fact that this DM has two sets of rules, one for himself, and one for the players.
If the players had all gotten robbed because they split up and brigands jumped them, fine. If the harpies were half-fiends and that's why they took his stuff, fine. The DM was generous in not killing them. I'd say it was the DM's decision.
But when you take into account the DM's penchant for munchkinism and the fact that the PC that got swarmed was the one that had said he was going to pawn all of his stuff...
Too suspicious to be coincidence. If the DM was uncomfortable about the amount of items the group had, he should have been honest and resolved it without behaving like a thug. But then, the only player who is now without his hard-won items is (say it with me now), the guy who made it known ahead of time that he wanted to sell them.
While we're at it, how often would every PC in the party be able to fly? Should the barbarian have just sat on his Wings of Flying and not used them at all? Of course if he uses them he'd be separated from the group.
If all the PCs in their group had methods of flight and they posted about their awesome mid-air victory over a flock of harpies some of you would probably accuse them of being munchkins.
I guess some people just can't win.
(Well not when the DM wants to "win" anyway...)
Mouseferatu
Hero
Bran, unless you are the DM in question, how the heck do you know what his intentions were? He has a "history" of munchkinism? Says who? We only have one side of the story here. For all we know, there are valid plot points behind every decision he's made, and the players simply haven't discovered them yet. Yes, he could be a munchkin, power-hungry DM out to get the players, but we've no way to know that for sure.
And really, why is being attacked by bandits a better way of losing items than being attacked by harpies? It all amounts to the same thing. And don't tell me "because harpies wouldn't do that, it says on page XX in the MM that..." Every DM I've ever met changes monster details from those in the books all the time. I sort of wonder how those that don't can deal with the constant rules-lawyering, really. My players count themselves lucky if they get a fight straight out of the book, and they like it better that way.
Nobody is saying the DM is infallible--or at least I'm not. What I am saying is that, from what we know of the story , it can't automatically be said that this was unfair.
And really, why is being attacked by bandits a better way of losing items than being attacked by harpies? It all amounts to the same thing. And don't tell me "because harpies wouldn't do that, it says on page XX in the MM that..." Every DM I've ever met changes monster details from those in the books all the time. I sort of wonder how those that don't can deal with the constant rules-lawyering, really. My players count themselves lucky if they get a fight straight out of the book, and they like it better that way.
Nobody is saying the DM is infallible--or at least I'm not. What I am saying is that, from what we know of the story , it can't automatically be said that this was unfair.
Bran Blackbyrd
Explorer
While I'm rolling...
The idea that the DM was removing unbalancing magic items from the game doesn't wash, whether he went about it the right way or not shouldn't even be in question. Why?
Because the player said he was going to sell them as soon as possible. Poof, no more items. Just harmless gold. The DM doesn't have to let the player buy another over-powered item with all that gold, so the problem dissapears. Furthermore, the NPC buying this gear doesn't have to give a good price for it. Maybe he's got 15 Rod's of Lordly Might right there in the shop and is only willing to part with a few hundred GP to buy another. The player gets low-balled on a few prices, sucks it up, and moves on. The player is reasonably happy, the DM doesn't have to worry about the over-powered items anymore, and all is right with the world.
But in this case the DM just wanted to screw someone, and you can tell that by the way things went down. All you have to do is take a hard enough look at the context in which it all occurred and it becomes clear. If this was all an honest mistake, it certainly was a brutal one.
This all assumes that the DM knew the player wanted to sell, though. But if we take what they said here at face value, he knew.
The idea that the DM was removing unbalancing magic items from the game doesn't wash, whether he went about it the right way or not shouldn't even be in question. Why?
Because the player said he was going to sell them as soon as possible. Poof, no more items. Just harmless gold. The DM doesn't have to let the player buy another over-powered item with all that gold, so the problem dissapears. Furthermore, the NPC buying this gear doesn't have to give a good price for it. Maybe he's got 15 Rod's of Lordly Might right there in the shop and is only willing to part with a few hundred GP to buy another. The player gets low-balled on a few prices, sucks it up, and moves on. The player is reasonably happy, the DM doesn't have to worry about the over-powered items anymore, and all is right with the world.
But in this case the DM just wanted to screw someone, and you can tell that by the way things went down. All you have to do is take a hard enough look at the context in which it all occurred and it becomes clear. If this was all an honest mistake, it certainly was a brutal one.
This all assumes that the DM knew the player wanted to sell, though. But if we take what they said here at face value, he knew.
The opposing argument:
Ok, this gaming group happens to be the one i play in and since people here were wondering about the other side of the argument, ill provide it, along with corrections to a few fallacies I've noticed
to ekimus and sonoflilith: sorry to go against the group here guys, but i agree with the dm
First, as I remember it... it WAS a random encounter.
Second, the barb spotted the harpies and then turned to face them... he COULD have outran them if he had so chosen... the wings have a speed of 90', harpies have a speed of 80'... this was hubris
Third, our dm is no where near being stringy on magic items. I, as a player, have commonly voiced my opinion on this... perhaps it got through i dont know.
Fourth, the barb was seriously unbalanced, he has had, amoung others: rod of lordly might, sun blade, frost band, flame band, AC +12 armor. We seriously just let him into a room and watch the carnage fly.
Fifth, the Vampire incedent was grossly misunderstood. This vampire DID have it coming to him, there have been many, many, very powerful people hunting him, and i mean many.
The encounter went like this. Vampire casts spell on other mage (this mage had been sent by another mage SPECIFICALLY to watch over this vampire) spell fizzles due to anti-magic field, other mage DROPS anti-magic field, uses control undead, vampire fails save, mage orders vampire into stream of RUNNING WATER, not an ocean of still water.
Sixth, We have a hell of a lot more than the 5000gp ekimus said, its becoming insane
on SonofLilith's side
The harpies first instinct, in my opinion, would have been to eat him. This would very likely have woken him up out of the charm and allowed him to wreak the massive ammounts of havoc he always did
Seriously though, the barbarian became a LOT more interesting after he lost all of his stuff. He stopped looking like a mage, glowing with magic, and more like a barbarian with only a single ludicrously oversized sword.
I hope I've added some nice fuel to this debate
flame on!
Ok, this gaming group happens to be the one i play in and since people here were wondering about the other side of the argument, ill provide it, along with corrections to a few fallacies I've noticed
to ekimus and sonoflilith: sorry to go against the group here guys, but i agree with the dm
First, as I remember it... it WAS a random encounter.
Second, the barb spotted the harpies and then turned to face them... he COULD have outran them if he had so chosen... the wings have a speed of 90', harpies have a speed of 80'... this was hubris
Third, our dm is no where near being stringy on magic items. I, as a player, have commonly voiced my opinion on this... perhaps it got through i dont know.
Fourth, the barb was seriously unbalanced, he has had, amoung others: rod of lordly might, sun blade, frost band, flame band, AC +12 armor. We seriously just let him into a room and watch the carnage fly.
Fifth, the Vampire incedent was grossly misunderstood. This vampire DID have it coming to him, there have been many, many, very powerful people hunting him, and i mean many.
The encounter went like this. Vampire casts spell on other mage (this mage had been sent by another mage SPECIFICALLY to watch over this vampire) spell fizzles due to anti-magic field, other mage DROPS anti-magic field, uses control undead, vampire fails save, mage orders vampire into stream of RUNNING WATER, not an ocean of still water.
Sixth, We have a hell of a lot more than the 5000gp ekimus said, its becoming insane
on SonofLilith's side
The harpies first instinct, in my opinion, would have been to eat him. This would very likely have woken him up out of the charm and allowed him to wreak the massive ammounts of havoc he always did
Seriously though, the barbarian became a LOT more interesting after he lost all of his stuff. He stopped looking like a mage, glowing with magic, and more like a barbarian with only a single ludicrously oversized sword.
I hope I've added some nice fuel to this debate
flame on!
I think the DM could have prevented all this mess if he would have focused on being more fair to the players...
If the players had that big of a problem with what the DM did, then they should have talked it over with him
The DM does sound like he was out to screw the barb... in my opinion, things could have been done differently with the same effect.
A good idea would have been for the players to voice their oppionions of the sesion and let the dm know what he did/didnt do to their liking. it shouldnt be a personal thing either, just a friendly chat on how to make the game more fun
In respects to the player that lost the barb, A rod of Lordly Might can make the character one bad @$$ M0ther fckr, but i would much rather die with dignity than be stripped by some pos harpies...
end of story
If the players had that big of a problem with what the DM did, then they should have talked it over with him
The DM does sound like he was out to screw the barb... in my opinion, things could have been done differently with the same effect.
A good idea would have been for the players to voice their oppionions of the sesion and let the dm know what he did/didnt do to their liking. it shouldnt be a personal thing either, just a friendly chat on how to make the game more fun
In respects to the player that lost the barb, A rod of Lordly Might can make the character one bad @$$ M0ther fckr, but i would much rather die with dignity than be stripped by some pos harpies...
end of story
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Re: The opposing argument:
See, folks, THIS is why you shouldn't get all worked up over someone else's game without hearing both sides of the issue.
Come to think of it, why get all worked up over someone else's game anyway?
I think TheMentat makes some great points. The barbarian does sound like he's dripping with treasure, and grossly more powerful than the other PCs. "We seriously just let him into a room and watch the carnage fly"? That doesn't sound like too much fun for the other players.
And the harpies' reasoning appears sound: they encounter a barbarian who's like a diamond-studded barrel of nitroglycerin. They can pick the diamonds off and leave the barrel alone, or they can open up the barrel and get blown to kingdom come. There's plenty of less dangerous meat in the world, they decided; we can trade all these ridiculous magic items to allies in exchange for power and succulent virgins.
In fact, it sounds as if (if this were a random encounter) the PCs would be better spending their time casting divinations and figuring out where all their loot is. Harpies are nasty to a lone, unprepared low-will-character, but they should be small fry to a group of prepared 13th-level characters. That barbarian, equipped with nothing more than a silenced tree branch and a fly spell, should be able to decimate the entire flock.
My only advice to the DM at this point would be to consider whether random encounters really add fun to the game. I personally don't think they do, and so I don't use them. It looks like you may want to ditch them as well.
Daniel
TheMentat said:
See, folks, THIS is why you shouldn't get all worked up over someone else's game without hearing both sides of the issue.
Come to think of it, why get all worked up over someone else's game anyway?
I think TheMentat makes some great points. The barbarian does sound like he's dripping with treasure, and grossly more powerful than the other PCs. "We seriously just let him into a room and watch the carnage fly"? That doesn't sound like too much fun for the other players.
And the harpies' reasoning appears sound: they encounter a barbarian who's like a diamond-studded barrel of nitroglycerin. They can pick the diamonds off and leave the barrel alone, or they can open up the barrel and get blown to kingdom come. There's plenty of less dangerous meat in the world, they decided; we can trade all these ridiculous magic items to allies in exchange for power and succulent virgins.
In fact, it sounds as if (if this were a random encounter) the PCs would be better spending their time casting divinations and figuring out where all their loot is. Harpies are nasty to a lone, unprepared low-will-character, but they should be small fry to a group of prepared 13th-level characters. That barbarian, equipped with nothing more than a silenced tree branch and a fly spell, should be able to decimate the entire flock.
My only advice to the DM at this point would be to consider whether random encounters really add fun to the game. I personally don't think they do, and so I don't use them. It looks like you may want to ditch them as well.
Daniel
SonOfLilith
First Post
Wow. i would have never guessed that this would get so many replays, nor could I have anticipated that every PC in our group would respond. Let me answer some questions and say a few words, since this does revolve around my barb.
First- We where over open water, with the harpies coming from land about a mile away. I was not aware that flew so slowly (never read MM) and just asumed they could outrun me. (My bad)
Second- The only random part was that I would have an encounter, th DM new that they were going to be harpys.
Third- I never said the DM was stingy on magical iteams. (he even lets us buy them at shops.) Although I seem to get more then most...
Fourth- The Mentat is right. I was going to get rid of the rod anyway. See, I had this vision of this huge greatsword that would strike fear into the hearts of my foes. Sure I would have liked to get a little something for my iteams, but the DM did feel pitty on my and had an old friend cash in a favor so I wan't completly broke. I used this money to build my dream sword.
Fith- I do think that the encounter was unfair, but, what can you do about it now? If we just wine about it, The DM will take away my new bride and joy or worse, re-do the encounter and watch my barb get torn to shreds. (I went back and read up on harpy's and I didn't stand a chance. I would have failed a will save sooner or later.) And besides, it's not as if I havn't screwed the group over in the past. All I can do is take the cards that where dealt to me, no matter how fair they are, and play 'em. It is a game after all.
P.S. guess that wasn't a few words, but hey.
First- We where over open water, with the harpies coming from land about a mile away. I was not aware that flew so slowly (never read MM) and just asumed they could outrun me. (My bad)
Second- The only random part was that I would have an encounter, th DM new that they were going to be harpys.
Third- I never said the DM was stingy on magical iteams. (he even lets us buy them at shops.) Although I seem to get more then most...
Fourth- The Mentat is right. I was going to get rid of the rod anyway. See, I had this vision of this huge greatsword that would strike fear into the hearts of my foes. Sure I would have liked to get a little something for my iteams, but the DM did feel pitty on my and had an old friend cash in a favor so I wan't completly broke. I used this money to build my dream sword.
Fith- I do think that the encounter was unfair, but, what can you do about it now? If we just wine about it, The DM will take away my new bride and joy or worse, re-do the encounter and watch my barb get torn to shreds. (I went back and read up on harpy's and I didn't stand a chance. I would have failed a will save sooner or later.) And besides, it's not as if I havn't screwed the group over in the past. All I can do is take the cards that where dealt to me, no matter how fair they are, and play 'em. It is a game after all.
P.S. guess that wasn't a few words, but hey.
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