Is this encounter too tough???
- Thread starter Iron_Chef
- Start date
DMG, page 101, gives a table for figuring EL.
Let's see how yours would shape up:
8 CR 6's make a 12
2 CR 8's make a 10
2 CR 11's make a 13
2 CR 13's (the one you listed plus the two CR 11's) make a 15
So that gives us:
15
14
12
10
9
12 + 10 makes 13
15 + 13 makes 16
16 + 14 makes 17
Looks like about an EL 17 to me. The CR 9 monster is the odd one out - no real way to figure him in. But it's very unlikely that he'd be enough to raise the encounter level.
I would caution you, though, to only use this as a guideline. I have found that the CR/EL system is rarely an accurate indicator of how tough an encounter will be - it's usually off, sometimes way off, especially if you're using monsters that are very tough for their challenge rating (ex. - dragons).
You know your players' capabilities; weigh them against those of the monsters and see how it looks to you.
Let's see how yours would shape up:
8 CR 6's make a 12
2 CR 8's make a 10
2 CR 11's make a 13
2 CR 13's (the one you listed plus the two CR 11's) make a 15
So that gives us:
15
14
12
10
9
12 + 10 makes 13
15 + 13 makes 16
16 + 14 makes 17
Looks like about an EL 17 to me. The CR 9 monster is the odd one out - no real way to figure him in. But it's very unlikely that he'd be enough to raise the encounter level.
I would caution you, though, to only use this as a guideline. I have found that the CR/EL system is rarely an accurate indicator of how tough an encounter will be - it's usually off, sometimes way off, especially if you're using monsters that are very tough for their challenge rating (ex. - dragons).
You know your players' capabilities; weigh them against those of the monsters and see how it looks to you.
Iron_Chef
First Post
The party is 2 CR 11 (wizard, cleric), 1 CR 10 (half red dragon rogue/fighter), 2 CR 8 (wizard, fighter/rogue), 3 CR 7 (fighter/wizard, ranger/cleric, ranger/sorcerer), 2 CR 5 (ogre barb 1, orc barb 5)... most slightly wounded (10% of hp lost or less), and having cast around 25% of their spells for the day. I think they will get absolutely massacred within 6 rounds by the bad guys (one of which, the CR 14, is a drow vampire cleric 11):
The players had no warning of this encounter and have no elemental protections whatsoever in place... Not that much except a few buffs and a fly spell.
Prior to battle, all bad guys have excessively buffed: bull's strength, cat's grace, endurance, fire shield, spider climb, fly, jump, plus BBEG vampire has cast spell immunity to searing light and flame strike)
Round 1
8 x drow sleep poison crossbow attacks (most will miss)
1 x 5d6 ice storm
1 x 5d6 lightning bolt
1 x 11d6 flame strike
2 x 10d6 flame strike
Hasted charge by drow rogue/blackguard on advanced fiendish displacer beast (how many attacks do you get when making a hasted charge? Two? One? They are moving more tha 30 ft.)
Round 2
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 7d6 lightning bolt
1 x 5d6 lightning bolt
2 x 10d6 flame strike
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
Round 3
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 4d4+4 magic missiles vs. any remaining spellcasters
2 x 5d8 searing light (no save)
1 x Blindness (DC 18) vs. one unarmored (arcane) caster
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters continues
round 4
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 7d6 lightning bolt
2 x dispel magic vs. party (10th level casters)
1 x dispel magic (11th level caster) vs. party or banishment if summoned creatures present
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
hasted drow 9th level fighter flies into melee (charging, one attack or two?)
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters continues
round 5
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 7d6 lightning bolt
2 x suggestion "run away" (DC 16) at likely looking fighters
1 x dispel magic (11th level caster) or banishment if summoned creatures present
three attacks by hasted drow 9th level fighter flying
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters continues
Round 6
???
Note both CR 10 clerics have slay living and will use it if engaged. The vampire cleric 11 CR 14 has used giant vermin to create three huge ticks to defend her position. She also has slay living, in addition to her vampiric energy drain slam attacks and domination gaze. I'm keeping the main three enemy casters out of melee as long as possible, as they don't wanna get all beat up and are "beneath" such base displays of physical aggression.
The players had no warning of this encounter and have no elemental protections whatsoever in place... Not that much except a few buffs and a fly spell.
Prior to battle, all bad guys have excessively buffed: bull's strength, cat's grace, endurance, fire shield, spider climb, fly, jump, plus BBEG vampire has cast spell immunity to searing light and flame strike)
Round 1
8 x drow sleep poison crossbow attacks (most will miss)
1 x 5d6 ice storm
1 x 5d6 lightning bolt
1 x 11d6 flame strike
2 x 10d6 flame strike
Hasted charge by drow rogue/blackguard on advanced fiendish displacer beast (how many attacks do you get when making a hasted charge? Two? One? They are moving more tha 30 ft.)
Round 2
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 7d6 lightning bolt
1 x 5d6 lightning bolt
2 x 10d6 flame strike
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
Round 3
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 4d4+4 magic missiles vs. any remaining spellcasters
2 x 5d8 searing light (no save)
1 x Blindness (DC 18) vs. one unarmored (arcane) caster
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters continues
round 4
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 7d6 lightning bolt
2 x dispel magic vs. party (10th level casters)
1 x dispel magic (11th level caster) vs. party or banishment if summoned creatures present
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
hasted drow 9th level fighter flies into melee (charging, one attack or two?)
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters continues
round 5
8 x spring attacks by 5th level drow fighters
1 x 7d6 lightning bolt
2 x suggestion "run away" (DC 16) at likely looking fighters
1 x dispel magic (11th level caster) or banishment if summoned creatures present
three attacks by hasted drow 9th level fighter flying
six hasted dire flail attacks by drow rogue/blackguard
displacer beast attacks
blade barrier in front of main evil spellcasters continues
Round 6
???
Note both CR 10 clerics have slay living and will use it if engaged. The vampire cleric 11 CR 14 has used giant vermin to create three huge ticks to defend her position. She also has slay living, in addition to her vampiric energy drain slam attacks and domination gaze. I'm keeping the main three enemy casters out of melee as long as possible, as they don't wanna get all beat up and are "beneath" such base displays of physical aggression.
Last edited:
Creeperman
First Post
Congratulations, you've created a meatgrinder. The party has absolutely no chance. Unless they somehow catch wind of the ambush and run, you're most certainly going to rack up a TPK.
I'd recommend taking down a notch or five. An EL 12 encounter should be more than challenging enough, especially with area-effect magic taking out the weaker party members.
I'd recommend taking down a notch or five. An EL 12 encounter should be more than challenging enough, especially with area-effect magic taking out the weaker party members.
dcollins
Explorer
Iron_Chef said:
My spreadsheet comes up with a value of EL 17.48, matching the previous poster's.
My personal method is to use the double-for-2-more-EL rule, convert everything to an equivalent number of CR 1 monsters, add those up, and convert back to an EL value. It's not explicitly given in the rulebooks, but matches the mathematics.
Iron_Chef said:
Within 6 rounds is right. The massacre won't take 6 rounds. Not even close. Half the party is likely to be dead after the first round/barrage of spells from the enemy. The drow, if they're smart (and I'm assuming they are, or at least competent) will target the spellcasters right off. So those lightning bolts and flame strikes will hit the wizards and cleric (wizards because with their low HP and poor reflex saves, they'll fall quickly, and cleric because they don't want him healing anyone). I'd expect the two single-class wizards to be dead after round 1, the single-class cleric to potentially be dead (depending on his HP and whether or not he's standing close to the wizards), and the rest of the party to be in a world of hurt.
The second barrage of spells will finish off the ones who were wounded in the first round as well as the lower-level characters. After that, it's just mop-up for the drow. The vampire may decide to dominate one or two of the fighters just to keep them around as slaves and/or playthings, but the rest of the party will be dead, dead, dead.
Seriously, this encounter would be well-nigh impossible for the party to beat under ideal circumstances. Having the drow with their buffs up and the party ambushed will just make it a slaughter.
Maybe - maybe - if the party was ambushing the drow, they might have a chance. But I think they'd probably still be killed unless they got very lucky.
So, in conclusion, don't run this encounter unless you want a TPK.
Iron_Chef
First Post
Creeperman said:
Actually, WoTC created the meatgrinder. It's called City of the Spider Queen.
I'm just stuck running it. I can remove the 8 5th level drow fighters, the 7th level drow evoker (that would negate all the lightning bolts, the ice storm and the magic missiles) and the 9th level drow fighter. What would that do? Still unbeatable? The party hadn't noticed these "surplus" ambush drow sneaking up behind them under cover, so they can be safely axed without suspending disbelief.
The party has no chance to catch wind of it until it's sprung, which is where the previous DM left it, at the conclusion of a witty exchange: "surrender"/"over our dead bodies". This is where I'm forced to pick it up in a few days! Bloody hell.
Now, barring an immediate surrender by the party, it's TPK time. The party has only one means of escape; the party wizard can teleport a few of them close to her out IF they win initiative, leaving the rest to die and become undead slaves. Running isn't even an option, as they will be cut down by spells in no time.
An immediate surrender will equate to a TPK, as the drow will attempt to kill their prisoners and turn them into undead slaves at the first opportunity, after some friendly torture for fun, of course.
The only possible allies closeby are a mindflayer merchant (could planeshift most away, but what's in it for him?), the drow archmage who hates the bad guys and wants to control the town himself and has bunches of wizards under his command (but daring to show his hand now over an unknown quantity like the party seems imprudent), or a bunch of paladins and clerics of Lathander who are on the same mission, unbeknownst to the party (who would normally kill them). Ideas?
Last edited:
Iron_Chef said:Actually, WoTC created the meatgrinder. It's called City of the Spider Queen.
I'm just stuck running it. I can remove the 8 5th level drow fighters, the 7th level drow evoker (that would negate all the lightning bolts, the ice storm and the magic missiles) and the 9th level drow fighter. What would that do? Still unbeatable? The party hadn't noticed these "surplus" ambush drow sneaking up behind them under cover, so they can be safely axed without suspending disbelief.
I'm a little bit familar with that module, and I don't remember all those spellcasters being together. Either the party did something really stupid to get all those drow together for an ambush, or something else is going on.
Getting rid of all those extra drow would help, but it would still leave the party facing, what, four prepared spellcasters? It's still a TPK waiting to happen.
I think if you want the party to survive, you're going to have to help them out somehow. The archmage might be able to help without the drow knowing it was him - maybe he could summon some monsters and teleport them in to aid the party. It wouldn't be much of a risk - if the party wins, he gets what he wants, and if they lose, it's not very likely that his "help" could be traced back to him.
Or, maybe the paladins could show up to help and they could hash out their differences with the party afterward. I don't know.
Destil
Explorer
He can make a partial charge (up to the mount's speed) if he makes his ride check to guide his mount as a free action for his extra partial. He can then take a full attack with his normal full round (In 3E. With 3eR Haste he only gets the charge).Iron_Chef said:
EDIT: Note in a suprise round he could only take 2 attacks: a partial charge and a standard action to attack (2 partial actions)
I'd bump the EL up by at least 1 or 2, to account for the bad guys getting a benifit of the ambush (buff spells up)...
Last edited:
Similar Threads
