Is this "Fair" - Part II

[librarius_arcana]

Since the discussion about the trap turning the monk into a pile of dust has prompted many questions in my mind about the various styles of play that I had to ask a couple of other questions.

A low level party (1st level average) is traveling to the Keep on the Borderlands through the hills and the DM rolls on the wandering monster charts and rolls for a Hill Giant.

The party of 1st level characters hears a rumbling sound and only one character hides in the woods, the rest stay to fight whatever is coming because the GM would never challenge them with something they couldn't handle.

Is the encounter "Fair"

Well, does this encounter need to turn to combat?

 

[spectre72]

Fair. The pcs chose to act on the assumption that the world doesn't have anything bigger than them in it- always a foolish assumption imho.

Kudos to the monk for saying, "Hmm, big noise... we're first level... HIDE IN THE BUSHES!!" Did he suggest this to the other pcs? Cause if he did, my assessment changes from "fair" to "even more fair, but man, those players need a cup of coffee in order to wake up before gaming."

LOL...

You mean something like "run for your lives", or something like that.

Yes, that did happen.

When asked about it after the carnage, I said that anything that made that much noise was something to be avoided, until I knew what it was.

When I saw it was a giant, and I saw the first rock fly she hid as far into the bushes as she could.

And since I have always believed that stealth is better than knowing how to perform, appraise, or use other worthless skills she survived by hiding and sneeking away.

Of course the rest of the party died a glorious death protecting the bright, shiny, and slow dwarves.

My monk survived for close to 3 years, 9 levels, and 2 TPK to retire and open a martial arts school.

She was brave, but knew how to run away when needed.

Her proudest moment was when she was close to 9th level and stopped the bull rush of a giant during a battle. Held the door of a keep so her companions could flee, and still escaped to tell the tale (not one of her smartest moves, but she was prepared to die for her friends)

 

[delericho]

OK, a clarification...

The party had warning because they heard a rumbling and other noises coming from the forest.

The party, except the monk, decided to stay in the road and meet whatever came out of the woods.

The monk reasoned that anything that made that much noise should be approached with caution and hid.

When the giant got close enough to see the party they were already in trouble.

The dwarves were in heavy armor and didn't move very fast, and the rest of the party decided to stay and help the dwarves because they were convinced that the DM would not throw anything at them that they could not handle.

The encounter probably could have been avoided if the party had hid in the forest, like the monk

That's fair, provided there was ample time for the dwarves to hide before the giant spotted them and attacked.

Beyond that, I have nothing more to contribute to this thread. Now, the others...

 

[spectre72]

RBDM Rant

Several people have thrown around the term RBDM in these fairness threads.

I am a RBDM, and proudly admit such.

Being a RBDM does not mean I am out to get my players, or that it is me against them.

I provide a game world where bad things happen to careless people.

Traps exist, and will get you.

I use all of the things that a PC will use on the enemy and give the same things to their enemy's to use against them.

If the characters triumph then we cheer, but if they don't then hopefully the same mistake will not be made by the rest of the party next time.

Not every encounter is level equivelent, and sometimes characters have to run away

In the game I provide the rope, and it is up to the player to use it as a lifeline or to hang their character.

While doing this the number one concern is making sure they have fun and want to come back, and this has never been a problem.

A number of people have said that they would not want to game with me because of this, and that is their right.

I have always had people to game with, and I have been the GM more often than not.

And out of our group of 20 people or so all 4 GM's follow the same philosophy about fairness.

All 3 topics being discussed - the lever, the map, and the giant would all be considered fair.

In none of those situations was there the implication that the GM was out to get the characters.

They made choices and had to deal with the consequences.

I guess in our group being a RBDM is not considered a bad thing.

 

[Glyfair]

For what it's worth, I think it's fair if it was an ancient red dragon. There are bad things in the world, and they don't morph into stronger or weaker versions depending on the level of the pcs who happen to walk by.

I'll agree with the caveat that the players must have available enough information to avoid such an encounter. A random overwhelming encounter that they can't win, can't escape from and can't avoid is definitely not fair. Might as well have wandering Spheres of Annihilation wandering the campaign world.

What's relevant is whether the players have fun during this encounter or not. That's what matters.

And sometimes it's also whether the encounter adds fun later. If the PCs fight the Hill Giant, fail miserably, and run away, it still can be fun later even if it's not fun now. If later on in the campaign the PCs get to finally defeat this nemesis, it's all that much sweeter.

I find one thing more common now is the focus on "players must have fun now." I think that encounters and the like should make the game more fun, but it doesn't have to be direct and immediate. As long as the encounter doesn't reach the "so unfun I consider quitting the game" then bad times can lead to better times later.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Fair.

There's more than a handful of ways for the encounter to go, and a creature that is vastly beyond their power gives them a chance to interact with it. If they would've had a bard, I would've expected to see some quick word-work. If they would've had a wizard or druid, I would've expected to have obscuring mist laid down. The rogues and the monks hide, and the rest just sit out of the way and hope nothing bad happens.

Scurrying into the underbrush (where you're beneath low trees so that the giant can't reliably throw rocks at you) is smart.

Where this varies from the original trap is that this was (a) announced in advance and (b) capable of being dealt with in more than one way. A lever can only be dealt with in two ways -- ignoring it or pulling it. And when there's no danger announced in advance, pulling it is a logical conclusion. And when that logic is punished, it strikes me as very unfair.

 

[mythusmage]

I voted "yes". But, I'm not really interested in whether an encounter is fair. My question is more, is it entertaining?

I'm not into fights to the death. With a set up like the one the OP presented the giant would toss a boulder or two the party's way, then the giant would present a challenge.

Giant: Tough are ye? Then challenge this I give... Beat you me your servant I shall be unto next town. Cook shall I for ye, and bear ye burdens. Ye defend and gift with healing. Ye stories tell, and merry jests.

Beat I you my servant be ye unto next town. Cook shall ye for me, and my burdens bear. Defend shall ye and gift with healing. Stories tell ye shall, and merry jests.

Accept challenge mine?