Is this "Fair" - Part III

[JRRNeiklot]

Fair, though I wouldn't hand them a map to a killer dungeon and title it "the tomb of moderately scary, icky things."

 

[Mercule]

Fair, though I wouldn't hand them a map to a killer dungeon and title it "the tomb of moderately scary, icky things."

Ditto.

 

[Odhanan]

A continuation of the Is it "Fair" polls

As part of treasure given to a 1st level party there is a map to a location that is noted as being filled with great treasures. The location could be Rappan Athuk, the Tomb of Horrors, ...etc. The party decides to go and explore the location without researching it and is greeted with a TPK inside the front door.

Is this "Fair"

Voted "Other". Not enough information to know whether that would be "fair". Would any research have brought up anything relevant regarding the way the PCs died? How did they die exactly? I don't know. So I can't judge.

 

[spectre72]

Lets add a few facts to the issue....

Since the location is not well known none of the characters are able to find anything about it using their skills (which are horrible at such a low level).

The map does not warn of any of the dangers to be found there.

The group does not have enough money to hire anyone to investigate the location for them using magical or mundane means.

The DM knows all of these as fact when he gave them the map.

The PC's go to the Tomb of horrors (not named such on the map) and are killed in the false enterance tunnel that collapses on you (they did not find the trap because the DC was too high, they could not evade because the save DC was too high, and they did not survive because their HP were too low).

Does this change anyone's answer?

 

[wayne62682]

In light of your new facts, it's highly unfair. If the DM knows that the PCs will be unable to research the thing and STILL goads them into going there, knowing that it'll kill them, then congratulations, he's just become a RBDM and I'd probably walk away from his table.

Now if they had the opportunity to find out that it was the "Temple of Horrendous Doom" but chose to ignore it and rush there to claim the "phat lewtz" then it's fair, if a bit underhanded.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[delericho]

The original scenario is fair. The revised scenario is unfair.

Basically, to be fair the scenario requires that a player who engages in good play be able to reasonably survive. So, if the PC does his research before entering the dungeon, he should receive some sort of warning of extreme danger. Simply having a map promising "great wealth" is insufficient warning.

 

[spectre72]

In light of your new facts, it's highly unfair. If the DM knows that the PCs will be unable to research the thing and STILL goads them into going there, knowing that it'll kill them, then congratulations, he's just become a RBDM and I'd probably walk away from his table.

So how did the PC's get "goaded"?

They were given a plot hook that was not appropriate for their level, but the GM did not push them to go there.

As a player I would not venture anywhere near a location that I had not gathered information about, and if I could not get any information I would have waited to go there.

In fact not being able to gather any information should be a clue that perhaps they should investigate further before going there.

I think what I am becoming to realize after reading a bunch of these threads is that there are many people that do not believe that there should be challenges in the gaming world that are not level appropriate.

In my campaign world there are things that low level PC's hear about that would be instant death if they followed up on them, IMHO there will be times that a PC will not have the appropriate skill levels to investigate something, or open a lock, or find a trap, ...etc.

If they decide to follow up on the map, or pull the lever, I do not feel responsible as a GM because I did not make the decision and take the action in character.

 

[delericho]

So how did the PC's get "goaded"?

A promise of "great treasure" is encouragement to go.

As a player I would not venture anywhere near a location that I had not gathered information about, and if I could not get any information I would have waited to go there.

One of the staples of the genre is the map to hidden treasure. Hidden treasure that is well known does not, as a rule, remain hidden for very long. Therefore, if no information was available, that is reasonably be assumed to be because the location is a secret.

If the location was that dangerous (as the "Tomb of Horrors" or "Rappan Athuk" would be) then finding that out shouldn't require a Gather Information check at higher DC than even a 1st level party can manage ("Oh yeah, we had a group of 'heroes' come through here last year said they were going there. Never heard of them comin' back though.").

In fact not being able to gather any information should be a clue that perhaps they should investigate further before going there.

I think what I am becoming to realize after reading a bunch of these threads is that there are many people that do not believe that there should be challenges in the gaming world that are not level appropriate.

Sure there should. But it should also be possible for the party to ascertain this. And a simple lack of information does not constitute a warning. Put the words "great treasure for those who dare" on the map, and that might be sufficient for it to be fair. Otherwise, you're reliant on the players reading your mind, and that's not fair.

In my campaign world there are things that low level PC's hear about that would be instant death if they followed up on them, IMHO there will be times that a PC will not have the appropriate skill levels to investigate something, or open a lock, or find a trap, ...etc.

If they decide to follow up on the map, or pull the lever, I do not feel responsible as a GM because I did not make the decision and take the action in character.

The game includes certain mechanisms for the party to gather the information required to make an informed choice. If you deny them that recourse, and fail to make the information available by some other means, you're deliberately denying them the ability to make a good choice. In effect, in order to survive through good play, they have to be able to read your mind. And that's not fair.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Of course that is fair.

 

[Odhanan]

Does this change anyone's answer?

Yes. If I ran the Tomb of Horrors at my game table for newbies, I would at least make them meet an NPC at the entrance or otherwise telling them that the place is extremely deadly. And/or I'd place loads of bodies at the entrance as a warning, kind of like Indiana Jones enters the temple of the Gold statuette in Raiders and sees the body of the previous explorer of the place dead for some time, killed by one of the traps they encounter. At least give them a warning, or tell them out of the game outright "You know guys, this adventure is REALLY deadly. You guys should be careful" as a fair warning.