Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[I'm A Banana]

Contrast the trap given below with the trap presented in the OP:

I think the other trap brings out something important, because both seem unfair. Both assure your destruction for not being prescient, because neither provided appropriate clues nor a fair chance at surviving the trap.

It is not unreasonable adventurer behavior to go around pulling levers. Especially after checking for traps. Especially when they guy with the highest chance for success pulls it. Even if some of them had been trapped.

It is also not unreasonable adventurer behavior to NOT pull the levers, especially after finding something suspicious about it, even if none of the previous levers had been trapped.

There are, I'd believe, only a minority of D&D players who enjoy having to outsmart the DM themselves to survive.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

This coming from the guy who likes the "trap within a trap" chest...

The entire point of alternating those traps IS to screw the players no matter what choice they make. Oh, you disarm the trap? You're screwed. Use a rope? you're screwed. Theres no rhyme or reason to their placement, other than to ensure that, even with caution, you still wont get off, and that their caution ensures their defeat at times.

Its a terrible style of play that damn near ruined an entire generation of gamers. When the simple act of opening a chest or door requires 10-20 minutes of experimentation (which will occasionally bite you on the ass at the DM's whim), those are games I'd rather pull my teeth out with pliers than attend.

Here's another "gem" from Grimtooth if you like crap like that. The party comes to a door. The hinges and lock on it are heavily corroded, but the door itself looks somewhat weak. If bashed open, their actions break a flask of poisonous gas on the other side of the door. GOTCHA! Or perhaps the door has dry rot, and kicking through it unleashes a blade trap that cuts off their leg. Mix that one up with doors that have explosive runes painted on the other side, mimics in the form of doors etc for added "fun" that leave your players wondering why they attended the session.

I wouldn't use such a trapped chest often, but I could see maybe putting something like that in a treasure chamber mixed with real treasure chests. Of course the bad guy would know to avoid it, but looters would try to open it. I wouldn't use such a trap often, but I could see using somethign like that on occasion, depending on what was being guarded by the trap. I probably wouldn't put an instant death trap on it though, more like 6d10 damage from gas or something along those lines.

I play with a group of gamers that have been playing various RPG's since the late 1970's. We have fun playing and haven't noticed any ruining effect. Lots of traps and puzzle filled dungeons is the norm for us, it works fine for our group. You hate it, but there are plenty that don't. Why get so worked up by it? You seem to be a strong proponent of the concept of other game styles being "badwrongfun".

 

[Bagpuss]

Remember, there was absolutely no need for the party in question to pull the lever in this scenario.

Other than curiousity, next time they won't be so curious and walk away. Maybe next time they won't be so curious about the whole adventure you've written and walk away from that as well.

Personal I like my players to be curious, it's not the sort of thing I discourage with instant death undetectable traps.

 

[LostSoul]

It's unfair if the players aren't playing a game with insta-death traps of this sort.

It's fair if they are.

 

[Ourph]

Other than curiousity, next time they won't be so curious and walk away. Maybe next time they won't be so curious about the whole adventure you've written and walk away from that as well.

Personal I like my players to be curious, it's not the sort of thing I discourage with instant death undetectable traps.

Curiousity is not what killed the character, rashness is what killed him. I love it when my players are curious and as a player I'd desperately want to find out what the lever does and what's behind the secret door. If I made the mistake of being rash and pulling the lever and lost a character I wouldn't be any less curious the next time, I'd just be more careful to use one of the numerous avenues available to me to discover what pulling the lever does and what's behind the secret door without exposing myself to unnecessary risk.

You're drawing an entirely false dichotomy here (and taking that quote completely out of context I might add) to try to prove that my and others approach to the game is badwrongfun. Why is it important to you to assert that no player is going to enjoy a game like this when it's patently obvious that there are actually people out there who enjoy this type of player challenge vs. character challenge in the game?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Curiousity is not what killed the character, rashness is what killed him. I love it when my players are curious and as a player I'd desperately want to find out what the lever does and what's behind the secret door. If I made the mistake of being rash and pulling the lever and lost a character I wouldn't be any less curious the next time, I'd just be more careful to use one of the numerous avenues available to me to discover what pulling the lever does and what's behind the secret door without exposing myself to unnecessary risk.

For my milage, I don't see what's so rash about pulling levers. It's not like you're poking a sleeping dragon in the eye with your finger. Or even like you're ignoring the warning signs (because, according to the OP, there weren't any). Or even that they didn't take sensible precautions (the rogue searched for a trap, the one most likely to survive pulled the lever just in case). It was that what they did was deemed "not enough," when they had no way of knowing that.

If you see a hundred dollar bill laying on the street and look around for people who might be missing it and even call out "Hey, did anyone drop this?" and then pick it up, I don't think that's rash.

I guess I also don't see caution and fear of levers as a very heroic trait.

I wouldn't say having fun doing it another way is bad, but I would say that you can have plenty of fun in unfair situations despite or even because of the lack of fairness. I would also say that, judging by the results of this poll and the ensuing discussion, a lot of people don't like to play in unfair situations like the one the OP described.

It's not bad to enjoy it unfair, but it's probably not a good idea to say "It's perfectly fair and those who see it as unfair are just being dumb whiny crybabys that want to be coddled! They would be fine if they just were clever and not stupid about it! They deserve what they got!"

I'm not saying you've EVER even come CLOSE to saying that, of course, but I bet some have read that into your posts (or posts by others who think it is perfectly fair) anyway.

 

[Bagpuss]

Why is it important to you to assert that no player is going to enjoy a game like this when it's patently obvious that there are actually people out there who enjoy this type of player challenge vs. character challenge in the game?

You know I don't really know, but you seem to be have the same sort of drive to call folks that would pull the lever "rash", "stupid", "hypocritical", and also quoting stuff out of context, so perhaps we should both look in the mirror then continue to play our own brands of badwrongfun in peace.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

For my milage, I don't see what's so rash about pulling levers.

It's not that pulling levers in itself is rash, but in this context it screams trap. Why would a secret door have a blatent lever as an opening device?

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's not that pulling levers in itself is rash, but in this context it screams trap. Why would a secret door have a blatent lever as an opening device?

Because levers open things. Like doors, sometimes. They checked for traps (one assumes even took 20, because they didn't appear to be in much of a rush). If they wouldn't have found the secret door, perhaps they would not have been able to see it opening, making the lever appear to do nothing.

It doesn't scream trap unless you are already paranoid and suspicious. Which is a fine atmosphere for a campaign, but I don't think we can assume that this was a campaign in that style with the information given. It is not reasonable to expect adventurers to, in general, as a rule, be paranoid and suspicious in a game of heroic fantasy, I think. Reasonably cautious, yes, and they were that. They certainly didn't just yoink the lever, they took, to appearances, all the standard precaution they'd take in any similar scenario. Unless they're pulling EVERY lever in the dungeon with a rope (unless they had reason to do it), why would they do it here?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

A secret door isn't very secret if it is opened by a lever sticking out of the wall, unless the door was invisible or something and you wouldn't see it open. Or if that door wasn't secret. I dunno, the question is nearly impossible to answer, but when I asked my players and they said "trap".