Is This How Elves Live?

[Pbartender]

Since the point of the original post is not, in retrospect, clear, let me rephrase.

Elves are generally represented as civilized yet living in the woods, but real-life humans who live in the woods live like primitive hunter-gatherers. Without farming, they have to stay on the move, and they don't generate the kind of population density they need to form a true civilization.

Now we have an example of real-life human hunter-gatherers who nonetheless manage to live a non-nomadic lifestyle with some of the trappings of early civilization. Is this a reasonable model for how elves live?

Sure. Realize, however, that these particular humans can only live like this because the food resources that they hunt and gather are unusually abundant and concentrated.

The question then becomes, "How do elves keep their food resources so abundant and concentrated without traditional agriculture?"

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The question then becomes, "How do elves keep their food resources so abundant and concentrated without traditional agriculture?"

Same way these guys did - luck of the draw. Deep primordial forests that happen to be teeming with game, wild fruits, etc. Perhaps they were led to that place by the word of their gods, or perhaps elven wizardry/druidism/etc has magically enhanced the location so that it has this incredible bounty.

 

[grimslade]

Sure. Realize, however, that these particular humans can only live like this because the food resources that they hunt and gather are unusually abundant and concentrated.

The question then becomes, "How do elves keep their food resources so abundant and concentrated without traditional agriculture?"

Trite answer: MAGIC!

Slightly less trite answer: By being a long lived race, elves have been around long enough to find the really good gathering spots, Chock-full-o'nouts and salmon. They are inteligent enough to defend these lands and utilize the natural resources, i.e. Treants, Dire Apes, vegepygmies, to help defend it. Magic will play a big role, especially druidical traditions.

It does make an elven civilization very dependent on its lands, however. Dam the river and burn the nut groves and it will take alot longer than a season to replant.

Enough about elves, how can this archaeology be transformed for Undermountain living for dwarves?

 

[Banshee16]

I guess elves would be hunter-gatherers since there would be like all of what... 3 generations of them? So if you pretend all our grandparents where the first humans on earth, elven 'grandparents' would have been the first elves. And since they live so long they probably don't adapt as fast as humans and would still hold onto their prehistoric/primitive traits.

I think people way overestimate how long they live in 3rd Ed.

Elves can reproduce, physically, by about age 30. Culturally, they're not considered adult until 100. They're middle-aged by 175. Thus, I'd suspect that an elven generation would be about 100 years. So there'd have been a heck of a lot more generations than just 3....

A world like Dragonlance, where the recorded history goes back about 8000 years from the current campaign, that's 80 generations. An individual elf's life could span 700 years...but a generation wouldn't...

In a world like Forgotten Realms, there's far more time to play with.

Banshee

 

[Tonguez]

Trite answer: MAGIC!
Slightly less trite answer: By being a long lived race, elves have been around long enough to find the really good gathering spots, ?

In one of the homebrew setting I've used, one of the nations was a Druidic theocracy (Cressia as created here at ENWorld)

The Cressians used a combination of Druidic husbandry, permaculture techniques and woodshape to create 'grove cities' which to outsiders might look like dense forests but which were in fact thriving metropoli with abundant food resources. They had even conquered and incorporated a neighbouring 'bronze using' culture so had access to metal goods.

I wont go into the joys and benefits of permaculture but there is no reason why even non-magical elfs wouldn't use it ....

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Enough about elves, how can this archaeology be transformed for Undermountain living for dwarves?

In my own campaign, the dwarves trade for the resources they need. They have the gold, the silver, and the gems, and they use it to buy the things they can't grow themselves. Also, specific to my game, they control tributary states and own slaves who work the lower elevations and plains, all to supply their dwarven masters with what they need.

I suppose if you want to more directly use the Jomon as an template for underdark dwarves, you could have your dwarves living on the edges of a vast underground lake or river that teems with fish. Rare lichens might be very high in nutritional value. If the dwarves are environmentally conscious, they may take good care of their resources, but it might be more interesting from a game standpoint if they overuse these resources - they're running out of food as they've eaten all the fish, and now they need to move to new, more fertile lands. This causes displacement of other races, causing conflict and opportunities for adventure...

 

[mmadsen]

Sure. It stops working when the orcs, dwarves, humans, etc, encroach on the lands surrounding your rich forests and start either cutting down the forest or planting awful, soil-depleting monoculture crops on the land adjacent.

Hence, civilization in decline.

Yes, exactly.

The fatal flaw of hunting and gathering is that it requires a lot of good land per person (or elf), which means that hunter-gatherer societies are sparse compared to farming societies, which means they're militarily weak.

If the elves are capable of permaculture -- planting multiple different crops in the same space -- on a level no real-life humans have achieved, then they could sustain a bustling civilization, but it would be in the forests, not the plains.

Also, the elves are doing things quite differently from the humans if they are generally living out their full natural lifespans, yet aren't growing their population beyond their food supply.

 

[Relique du Madde]

I personally think that if elves were to farm, their crops of choice would be berries, mushrooms, nuts, beans, and misc. types of fruits that could be harvest within a forest setting.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

If the elves are capable of permaculture -- planting multiple different crops in the same space -- on a level no real-life humans have achieved, then they could sustain a bustling civilization, but it would be in the forests, not the plains.

Most likely, they would need either different nutritional needs from humans, or they would need some sort of uber plant that supplies crazy nutrition. I suspect the Jomon were able to pull it off largely on the back of fishing. High protein AND a wonderful combo of fatty acids equals good living on less bulk of food. There is little in the plant kingdom that supplies 1/10 of that in the same bulk.

Essentially, given plants as they exist in our world, you can live great on them, but you have to eat a lot more total volume, as a rule, because they are not as nutrient-rich (on average).

Nuts would be a staple. In a D&D world, possibly carnivorous plants would be a good nutrient source, as well.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Also, the elves are doing things quite differently from the humans if they are generally living out their full natural lifespans, yet aren't growing their population beyond their food supply.

The elves' long lifespans should help them here - as they live so long, their numbers will increase slowly, allowing them the tiem to adapt to the increasing numbers. Incremental improvements in their management of their food supply will solve their issues, whereas a short-lived and fecund race like orcs (or for that matter, relatively speaking, humans) will experience population explosions that will tax their immediate surroundings, forcing them to expand their terrritory and come into conflict with other races or cultures.