Is this legal? (MotW- Savage Species)

[Cheiromancer]

I'm inclined to believe that it is abusive, but I'm not sure if it is technically illegal:

"Mandy"

Human

str: 8
dex: 10
con: 14
int: 15
wis: 16
cha: 10
(1st level scores - 28 point buy.)

level 1: Wizard - Endurance - Alertness
level 2: Wizard
level 3: Wizard - Assume Supernatural Ability (petrification)
level 4: Wizard - +1 Wis
level 5: Wizard
level 6: Shifter - Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (petrification)
level 7: Shifter

At third level Mandy can cast Alter Self, which is a legitimate way of fulfilling the pre-requisites of the Shifter prestige class. I can't see any reason why Alter Self cannot, therefore, meet the pre-requisite for the Assume Supernatural Ability feat- all it says is that the character must "be able to assume a new form magically."

At 7th level Mandy can walk around just as if she were a medusa with the spellcasting ability of a 5th level wizard. That's an ECL 15 at 7th level. Now, one dispel magic can throw her back into her old form, but I doubt that's enough of a balancing factor.

 

[LokiDR]

I would not allow alter self to work. You do not change into a different creature, you just alter your own body to resemble a creature.

Note, with alter self you never change your physical stats, gain or loose natural armor, or gain any natural attacks. Therefore, I would say you would have to wait for poly.

 

[Brekki]

Being able to cast Alter Self is not enough. You have to have Alter Self as a (supernatural) ability. The only spell that gets you into the shifter class is Polymorph Self.

And "polymorph self or similar effect" (from the Assume ... feat description) is not fulfilled by Alter Self.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Being able to cast Alter Self is not enough. You have to have Alter Self as a (supernatural) ability. The only spell that gets you into the shifter class is Polymorph Self.

And "polymorph self or similar effect" (from the Assume ... feat description) is not fulfilled by Alter Self.

Did the Shifter class get errata when I wasn't looking? Under "Requirements" it says:

Special: Alternate form--must either know polymorph self or have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ability.

LokiDR: If alter self satisfies the requirement of having an "alternate form," then why does it not also satisfy the requirement of "be able to assume a new form magically." Is there some nuance of "new form" that is not conveyed by "alternate form"?

 

[Brekki]

Special: Alternate form--must either know polymorph self or have a NATURAL alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ABILITY.

(caps mine)

You have to have "alter self" as a (super)natural ability. Polymorph Self is the only spellcasting way to get into the class.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ah, I see. Thanks Brekki. So it would take the 9th and 12th level feat slots, not the 3rd and sixth. That is much more reasonable.

[edit] although it is strange that a wizard who knows shapechange doesn't meet the requirements. And neither does a high level druid.

I think too much.[/edit]

 

[Blood Jester]

(caps mine)

You have to have "alter self" as a (super)natural ability. Polymorph Self is the only spellcasting way to get into the class.

You're ignoring what a 'comma' means. It abbreviates this set of clauses:

Special: Alternate form--must either know polymorph self or have a natural alternate form, or have alter self, or have polymorph self, or have shapechange, or have wild shape ability.


Bold mine.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ok, to meet the requirements you must either

* know polymorph self, or
* have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ability.

Now, does "natural" apply to all the elements of the list, or only to "alternate form."

If the requirements refer to having a natural alternate form, or a natural alter self ability, or a natural polymorph self ability, or a natural shapechange ability, or a natural wild shape ability, then Druids can't take this class- their wild shape ability is class derived, not something they were born with. But that isn't so- see the bottom of the right column of page 69 - it refers to a Drd8/shifter1.

So "natural" refers only to the alternate form.

Does "ability" refer only to wild shape or to all the elements from alter self forward? In other words, does knowing any one of the listed spells satisfy the requirement, or do you need to have alter self, polymorph self, or shapechange as a racial or class ability? If knowing the spell is sufficient, why is polymorph self listed twice? If knowing the spell is not sufficient, then we must conclude that a wizard who knows shapechange but not polymorph self cannot take this class.

So, *can* a wizard who knows shapechange but not polymorph self meet the requirements to be a shifter?

 

[LokiDR]

I think Brekki has the right of it, and I just didn't read the requirement close enough.

Know the spell Polymorph Self or have the natural ability that are or act like alter-self, polyself, shapechange, or wildshape. If you know the spell Shapechange, but not Polymorph Self, you do not fulfill the requirements, by the letter of requirement.

As for what is considered "natural", any racial or class ability. If there was a class that gave you alter self as an ability, you qualify. Spellcasting, and therefore spells, are spells and not abilities. Your "ability" in that case is the abilty to cast spells, not the abilty of that specific spell.

*Druid 5 qualifies with wildshape (even though it is a spell-like class ability).
*Druid 13 qualifies for Thousand Faces supernatural ability, even though it is from a class.
*Doppleganger qualifies with the spell-like racial ability to alter self.
*Wizard 7 qualifies if they know (in spell book) Poly Self
Sorc 8 qualifies if they know (spells known) Poly Self
*Wiz 3 does not meet the requirement because they do not have the "natural" abilty to alter self, just the "natural" abilty to cast 2nd level spells.

 

[Cheiromancer]

[double post]