Is this Sorcerer really too much?

[Li Shenron]

Consider the same Sorcerer as in the PHB, except that he can choose the spells he learns from ANY spell list in the book, and not just the Wizard list.

Would she be too powerful? Too versatile? Would she outshine the other characters? Although this idea seemed crazy to me at first, after a while I started considering it not too bad. The strict limit on the number of spells known by a Sorcerer will always be the drawback of the class, and I don't think that everyonw ould like to be a Sorcerer because of this change. Wizards would still know many more powerful spells from their list, which admittedly is the best list.

Eventually, a typical Sorcerer will probably pick up 80-90% of his spells from the Wiz list, and possibly a few healing spells from the divine spellcasters list.

In general, there are more people that think the Sorcerer is a weak class than people who prefer it over the Wizard (even if I myself think they are even), and this change doesn't increase her power too much. On the bright side, it could make the Sorcerer somehow an equivalent for multiclassed spellcaster, without the lack of playability, and can get rid of the stupid Mystic Theurge.

Well, what do you think?

 

[Firzair]

Hi Li,
IMC I've done just that, but the sorcerer can learn spells from the cleric and druid list one level higher. So a Cure light wounds spell is a second level spell for him.
It adds a nice touch of versatibilty (sp?). Doesn't unbalance anything.

Greetings
Firzair

 

[Li Shenron]

Hi Li,
IMC I've done just that, but the sorcerer can learn spells from the cleric and druid list one level higher. So a Cure light wounds spell is a second level spell for him.
It adds a nice touch of versatibilty (sp?). Doesn't unbalance anything.

Greetings
Firzair

As a matter of fact, I was thinking about such kind of restriction, but I wasn't sure yet what to write... there are different possibilities.

This restriction of yours would allow the other spellcasters to still be the best in their own spells. It also puts the limit on 8th level spells from other lists.

Another way could be instead to let the Sorcerer learn spells from other lists only up to 1 level lower than the highest he can cast.

A different kind of restriction could be to allow Sor to learn spells from any lists only at ODD levels (starting from 3rd), while at EVEN levels she must choose the new spells from the Wizard list. This would be a restriction to versatility, not to power.

Anyway, the Sorcerer is already 1 level late when getting more powerful spell levels, and that has to be considered as well

 

[Derrick Reeves]

It's probably too much. Divine Power strikes me as particularly abusive, just off the top of my head. So does Resist Energy off the Ranger list, Charm Monster off the Bard list, Hold Person from the Cleric list, etc, etc, etc.

I've changed my mind. It's certainly too much, and it's very unclear.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Make it be off ANY list at 1 level higher, not just non-Arcane, and you get more balanced. It's like the Monte Cook Sorcerer; Shield at 2, Haste at 4, and so on. So, they're worse Arcane casters than Wizards, but have the flexibility of divine magic. Of course, if you do that, you're really getting close to what Clerics already do with their domains...

You'd probably have to restrict it to the spell lists of pure caster core types (Cleric, Wizard, Druid), or else you'd see things like learning Heal at 6th simply because it's on the Adept list at 5, or trying to use a PrC's spell lists.

 

[Li Shenron]

You'd probably have to restrict it to the spell lists of pure caster core types (Cleric, Wizard, Druid), or else you'd see things like learning Heal at 6th simply because it's on the Adept list at 5, or trying to use a PrC's spell lists.

I agree definitely, otherwise someone would surely come up with a book which holds a PrCl that - since the PC is supposed to be high level when getting its spells - have powerful 1st level spells.

The problem is already visible with Ranger and Paladin, whose 4th level spells are very good... So the official ruling could restrict her to spell lists of 9 levels of spells? (and everything beyond core classes should in any case require DM's approval, but the DM is me, so no way).

Keep in mind anyway that this Sorcerer would have a place in a powered-up setting where every class is slightly tweaked upwards (see my other thread about the Figther). For example, the Wizard would get something more herself - not much actually, I was thinking about a few free Spell Mastery (every 4 levels) and maybe a signature spell (spontaneous casting) every 10 levels.
I will make a comprehensive thread with all the classes when I have thought of all of them, or most...

I still don't think it would be broken even if every other class stays the same, although it would definitely be better. I think the Sorcerer really knows very few spells, I think at 20th level it's about 30 spells (+ 9 cantrips), so less than 4/level, and every time she would have to give up a good Wizard spell in order to learn something else. The only thing that Wiz spells can't do is healing, and she could pick up 3-4 healing spells, and eventually (if wanted) a few animal-oriented spells from the Druid. I think the problem would be in some spell's specific case, like Divine Power exactly, which is meant for a Cleric and too good for someone with low BAB.

 

[DreamChaser]

it's around 40-43 spells, I think.

 

[AeroDm]

I'd make each spell they choose up to DM ruling then. If they try to take a spell that is lower on one list than it is on the other, just tell them to quit trying to break the system. Easier than writing up pages of rules, which they will undoubtedly try and find loopholes in. Plus supplements will introduce more spells, so you'd be constantly trying to update your materials.

Also- although I think the sorc needs a boost as I haven't seen one played in our games in over 2 years, this is a substantial boost. I'd for sure have a 1 level penalty on the spells. Cure light wounds would still be a "for-sure" on my list.

I'd also consider making this a feat. Say each time they take the feat they may choose one additional spell list (cleric, druid, wizard) to choose from. Maybe if they take the same spell list twice they don't incur the 1 lvl penalty? Perhaps too powerful.

And, like has alraedy been said, I'd keep people from taking Paladin only spells. Additionally, I'd strongly consider limiting certain cleric spells that are just too powerful.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ironically I just noticed one thing from the SRD:

A Sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Every other spellcasting class does not have "primarily" in this sentence

Clearly, it means nothing, but I still think it sounds funny and someone could argue it could mean a difference...

 

[DonAdam]

I would say that if the spell is not on the wizard, cleric, or druid list that you can pick it up off another list.