Is Whirling Frenzy balanced against Rage?

[Thurbane]

Just curious on your thoughts.

Is the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA (and in the exapnded SRD) balanced against the standard rage ability?

RAGE VARIANT: WHIRLING FRENZY
A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.
Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

My gut feeling is that this is significantly more powerful than the standard Rage.

Thoughts? - T

 

[Rystil Arden]

It is indeed significantly more powerful than normal rage. There are probably threads with math documenting this.

 

[Crothian]

It is better then Rage.

 

[Nifft]

It's a bit better. The fact that it doesn't boost your Con means that it ends sooner.

Also, the lack of Will boost means you're more likely to be out of the fight early -- or fighting on the other side.

All in all, it's balanced IMHO. On the strong side, but balanced.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Geoff Watson took it in my last game, which is prima facie evidence it's more powerful than normal rage.

 

[brehobit]

As someone who has used it, I'd say better, but not as much as people think.

The big balancing fact that folks miss is that without the Con boost the duration of the rage is shorter by two rounds as you don't get the Con bonus.

So the trade is basically:
Pro:
1 extra attack (-2 to all attacks) which is huge
A bonus similar to +4 dex (no armor restrictions, no bonus to dex or dex-based skill checks)
No -2 AC

Con:
No +4 Con
No +2 bonus to will saves
No +2 rounds duration (due to the Con).

I think the Whirling Frenzy just needs to drop the +2 AC bonus and everything would be fine.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Oh, yeah. It's definitely better.

Not quite "broken" better, but close.

 

[Whimsical]

I have played a WF Barbarian and it is quite nice. If it didn't exist, I wouldn't have played a barbarian.

A couple of suggestions:

Make sure you limit that extra attack to full round attacks like haste does, and not just any round (since the wording didn't explicitly limit it).

One modification I set up when a player in my game took Whirling Frenzy: you can use Combat Expertise (and feats and prestige classes that require it) during a whirling frenzy, but not Power Attack (and feats and prestige classes that use it). Since the player had both, it was a real choice whether to frenzy or not. He tended to WF against BBEG, but not against multiple opponents.

 

[hong]

IME it's rare that the duration of a rage/frenzy matters, at least at levels 12+. Most characters will have decent Con in the first place, and fighter types at high level will have great Con (20+). So that's at least 5 rounds of frenzying, which is enough to see out most fights. The player might not be able to frenzy right from the start of combat, but it shouldn't be hard to still be frenzying at the end.

The biggest balancing factor IMO is the loss of the +2 to Will saves.

 

[Thurbane]

OK, thanks for the feedback. I want to open the the UA variants for my next campaign, but was a bit concerned about balance issues.

Another question: if the character was in WF and got Hasted, would he get two bonus attacks per round, or still just one?